M Color

[Guest borge]

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Has anyone performed a comparative test between the M9 and the M240 in regards to AWB?

 

This is extremely easy to test (to confirm that the M240's AWB is way off).

Just take a few snapshots with the same lens on the exact same scene and composition with both cameras at the same settings (shutter, f-stop, etc) while AWB is enabled.

 

Do 3-5 scenes, and 3-5 shots on each scene with both cameras to pick up single deviations that might occur. Then import the shots to Lightroom and compare the AWB temperature and tint values.

 

If it is a AWB issue it should be very easy to confirm it by performing these tests.

If the values are about the same then it isn't an AWB issue but rather a color profile issue either in-camera, bayer filter issue, or raw decoder issue.

 

Anyone?

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[dwbell]

Thighslapper is entitled to face-palm right about now.

[thighslapper]

Has anyone performed a comparative test between the M9 and the M240 in regards to AWB?

 

This is extremely easy to test (to confirm that the M240's AWB is way off).

Just take a few snapshots with the same lens on the exact same scene and composition with both cameras at the same settings (shutter, f-stop, etc) while AWB is enabled.

 

Do 3-5 scenes, and 3-5 shots on each scene with both cameras to pick up single deviations that might occur. Then import the shots to Lightroom and compare the AWB temperature and tint values.

 

If it is a AWB issue it should be very easy to confirm it by performing these tests.

If the values are about the same then it isn't an AWB issue but rather a color profile issue either in-camera, bayer filter issue, or raw decoder issue.

 

Anyone?

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/278105-comparison-m9-m240-4.html#post2365557

[Guest borge]

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/278105-comparison-m9-m240-4.html#post2365557

 

Oh wow, the M240 images are really hot (pun intended) :-)

[Ozkar]

You may be on to something. Sony took over the Konica-Minolta photo business and Sony sensors have performed very well. Of course on ergonomics Sony seems to have not accepted the camera company's approach, preferring the consumer electronics approach with menus buried in menus and submenus and buttons and wheels galore. I sometimes think Sony and Leica would be good team - but that is not going to happen as Leica has teamed with Panasonic.

 

The RX1 has an aperture dial, shutter dial and an exposure compensation dial. How do you adjust exposure compensation on a Leica M?

[erl]

The RX1 has an aperture dial, shutter dial and an exposure compensation dial. How do you adjust exposure compensation on a Leica M?

Short answer is, I don't know, I don't have the new M.

Long answer is, I reckon the same way as any other 'M' camera. ie. Manually by rotating the shutter speed dial or aperture ring. Remember, it really is a manual camera.

 

Of course there is probably a menu somewhere for it, but like AWB, when would you really use it that way?

[Gary Clennan]

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The RX1 has an aperture dial, shutter dial and an exposure compensation dial. How do you adjust exposure compensation on a Leica M?

 

It's quite simple really. You just hold down the "focus button" on the front and and spin the setting dial until you get the value you need. You can also activate it by diving into the menus but that takes a little bit longer. It works very well once you get the hang of it...

[Rick]

The RX1 has an aperture dial, shutter dial and an exposure compensation dial. How do you adjust exposure compensation on a Leica M?

 

We have manual compensation through the aperture ring on M lenses and the shutter dial on the top of the M. For those that must use EC we can hold the button on the front of the camera and spin the dial on the back. I hear this is somewhat difficult. I wouldn't know because, I have never tried this method as it seems stupid to me.

 

I do have the RX1 and really do love this little PAS camera. But, the EC dial does irk me because, it is too easy to move inadvertently. So, I have solved the problem of inadvertent EC movement of the dial as follows"

 

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[Rick]

I was able to spend part of the day shooting while out with my wife on the search for the perfect plant from nurseries in the area. When I got home, I wasn't able to make a better or universal camera profile than the Adobe Standard. I use ColorChecker Passport and LR and some adjustments to the camera calibration settings in LR.

 

Here is what I would suggest as a starting point for afternoon sun: 4950/-12. Basically, bring temp down and the tint up (to the right).

 

The Adobe Standard looks pretty good. When the WB is correct from a WhiBal card it is hard to make a better camera profile. I have made several profiles and I am still having trouble balancing red/green. So, I can't post anything better than Adobe Standard yet.

 

I have to say, when WB is corrected, red isn't far off. I think this is pretty good for a camera profile that is only 6-weeks from when the camera was available.

 

(I'm not certain, but I think that the "Live View - Multi" setting is the best AWB)

[Guest malland]

...But until they sort out the M s color ..it will be Apples and Oranges .

With the M240 being oranges...

 

—Mitch/Paris

Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project]

[wattsy]

while out with my wife on the search for the perfect plant from nurseries in the area

 

Rick, did you find one that will go nicely with those fabrics you went shopping for recently?

[Rick]

Rick, did you find one that will go nicely with those fabrics you went shopping for recently?

 

I know this is supposed to be funny, but I can't cipher out the humor. Could you throw me a clue - a little slow this am.

[wattsy]

I know this is supposed to be funny, but I can't cipher out the humor. Could you throw me a clue - a little slow this am.

 

I seem to remember you wrote something about having good colour vision when you go shopping for fabrics (or something like that) with your wife but I've probably mixed you up with someone else.

[k-hawinkler]

I seem to remember you wrote something about having good colour vision when you go shopping for fabrics (or something like that) with your wife but I've probably mixed you up with someone else.

 

 

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2292728-post22.html

[Rick]

Jeez, how do you guys remember this stuff? I am at loss for a witty riposte...

[tobey bilek]

Kurt ...... I've posted dozens of examples to investigate and show this.......

 

The usual reply is ..... 'It will all be solved when the RAW converters have the correct profiles'.....

 

which completely misses the point.....

 

AWB output from the M9 is ok

AWB output from the M isn't

 

Use any convertor with the embedded profile set and this is obvious. The results in LR4, Aperture and Capture One are all very similar.

 

On the LCD screen this is obvious as well .... try comparing the M9 and M results on the camera .... the same issues are plainly obvious.

 

You shouldn't need a profile in a RAW convertor to get reasonable results .... a profile is to tweak things a bit to get it perfect.... and to compensate for the idiosyncracies of the convertor in how it decodes things.

 

AWB in LR4 does a reasonable job ...... Leica should be able to do the same. AWB is not rocket science ..... there are multiple algorithms out there that use a variety of methods and most give good results. Embedded AWB in the M consistently produces images that are far too warm.

 

All of the other settings ..... Daylight, Cloud, Shade etc are similarly at variance with reality. All supply an embedded correction factor for the convertor to use and the result is consistently too warm.

 

Every camera is calibrated as the output of the sensor rarely bears any relation to reality ...... and that is a function of the in-camera processing that then takes the basic output and provides correction factors so that the sensor output matches a standard set by the industry ...... and then on top of that are correction factors for different ambient lighting situations for the RAW convertor to use.

 

If you take an AWB M file and dial in the same temp and tint as an identical M9 image you get two pictures that differ imperceptibly. I've posted images that show this.

 

It is a Firmware issue ..... Leica have 'chosen' correction factors that for most of us are too warm

 

Why do you use auto WB? Was not correct with M8 or 9 either. Nikon`s is not correct, neither is canons. The solution is to manually set it to sun or whatever the condition is or do a custom WB which is a "WB " I keep stored in my digital cameras. Whi Bal card is your friend just like an incident light meter.

 

In my opinion this is not much different than reflected light v incident light reading. Reflective is always wrong unless it reads 12/18 % grey. Sun on snow always goes grey. We learned to compensate decades ago. Auto WB is no different. unless there is the proper amount of RGB spread in the photo, the camera will guess wrong.

 

I use auto in mixed lighting when everything else is hopeless. Then I put a grey reference in if I have time. If not, then use threshold to find WP and BP and then get them set to 256,256,256 & 0,0,0 . This always get you there. In fact it is frequently necessary even when grey is 125 on all channels. The WP & BP do go off anyway.

[thighslapper]

Why do you use auto WB? Was not correct with M8 or 9 either. Nikon`s is not correct, neither is canons. The solution is to manually set it to sun or whatever the condition is or do a custom WB which is a "WB " I keep stored in my digital cameras. Whi Bal card is your friend just like an incident light meter.

 

In my opinion this is not much different than reflected light v incident light reading. Reflective is always wrong unless it reads 12/18 % grey. Sun on snow always goes grey. We learned to compensate decades ago. Auto WB is no different. unless there is the proper amount of RGB spread in the photo, the camera will guess wrong.

 

I use auto in mixed lighting when everything else is hopeless. Then I put a grey reference in if I have time. If not, then use threshold to find WP and BP and then get them set to 256,256,256 & 0,0,0 . This always get you there. In fact it is frequently necessary even when grey is 125 on all channels. The WP & BP do go off anyway.

 

Why does every digital camera has an Auto WB, Daylight, Cloudy, Shadow , Tungsten, Fluorescent setting ...... ???

 

You might not want to use it ..... but I suspect you are in a minority...

 

Most high end cameras get it right ..... or very close, most of the the time....

 

My M9 gets it right most of the time.

 

The M gets it wrong most of the time.

 

The Daylight setting for the M is wrong as well ..... as are all the other preset WB options....

 

Auto WB is not a 'guess' ..... it is sophisticated algorithm that uses one of a number of strategies to assess the correct colour balance for the prevailing lighting ...... a proper RGB spread is not needed for some of these ....

 

If Leica supply it as a feature in their cameras I expect it to work. I'm happy to make minor adjustments or use other tactics in difficult situations.

 

Anyway Tobey .... you have the last laugh ...... I have just ordered a set of Expodisks and will be abandoning the WB settings on the M till they are fixed ......

 

I'll run some comparisons with both M9 and M using them and see just how well they work and how the auto and daylight settings vary from the grey calibrated photos......

[bocaburger]

Very true, but comparatively speaking I have found the AWB in just about every other digital camera I own or have owned, to be closer than either the M8 or M9 were at their outset, prior to firmware revision. So it would not surprise me at all if the AWB in the M240 will be improved significantly in future firmware. And I have already heard that JPEG quality in the M240 far exceeds that of the M9. Probably not all that important to most people, but it is handy when taking snaps.

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[kdriceman]

Why do you use auto WB? Was not correct with M8 or 9 either. Nikon`s is not correct, neither is canons. The solution is to manually set it to sun or whatever the condition is or do a custom WB which is a "WB " I keep stored in my digital cameras. Whi Bal card is your friend just like an incident light meter.

 

In my opinion this is not much different than reflected light v incident light reading. Reflective is always wrong unless it reads 12/18 % grey. Sun on snow always goes grey. We learned to compensate decades ago. Auto WB is no different. unless there is the proper amount of RGB spread in the photo, the camera will guess wrong.

 

I use auto in mixed lighting when everything else is hopeless. Then I put a grey reference in if I have time. If not, then use threshold to find WP and BP and then get them set to 256,256,256 & 0,0,0 . This always get you there. In fact it is frequently necessary even when grey is 125 on all channels. The WP & BP do go off anyway.

 

This is why this thread is perplexing to me. It appears that most are in agreement that AWB is off on the M. Fine, no big deal really, it seems most experienced photographers can work through that even if they use AWB from time to time. It is easily corrected in post. But, to what extent do the color rendering issues of the M extend beyond white balance? Because if there are color problems beyond just setting white balance it can be hard to fix and maybe impossible(?). I don't have an M yet, but before my name rises to the top of my dealer's list I would like to have a better understanding of what this issue is.

[thighslapper]

This is why this thread is perplexing to me. It appears that most are in agreement that AWB is off on the M. Fine, no big deal really, it seems most experienced photographers can work through that even if they use AWB from time to time. It is easily corrected in post. But, to what extent do the color rendering issues of the M extend beyond white balance? Because if there are color problems beyond just setting white balance it can be hard to fix and maybe impossible(?). I don't have an M yet, but before my name rises to the top of my dealer's list I would like to have a better understanding of what this issue is.

 

From my tests it seems to be almost entirely related to the White Balance settings (all are at variance with reality)

 

M240 images with M9 WB settings (for the same photo) give results that are indistinguishable from a colour palette point of view.

 

For those of you that view AWB and the other settings with contempt, and ignore them, you have a perfect camera with excellent colour reproduction.

 

For the incompetents like me, who like and need in camera WB settings, there is an issue ....