chris_tribble Posted March 19, 2007 Share #1 Posted March 19, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dear All - thought it was worth making a new thread to share what's coming up from the survey. (Full results are attached in A4 and US paper sizes). Important results to date are: 1/ Out of 271 completed surveys, 176 have experienced no problems but 26 suffered from complete failure. Others have suffered a failure from which the camera has recovered. KEY FACTS # 72.31% chose the following options : * No major problems * Camera freezes but recovers after replacing the battery Not good enough - though it would be interesting to know how the M7 has fared - I had to send mine back because of faulty ISO / EV compensation selection. 2/ On the overall satisfaction question the KEY FACTS are: * 89.6% chose the following options : * Very satisfied * Satisfied Do have a look at the survey results - they make interesting reading. If you've not completed the survey - or know people who haven't, please try to get the numbers up. I'll be closing at the end of the week so Guy can pass on to Leica. Best Survey _ Leica M8 - issues_A4.pdf Survey _ Leica M8 - issues_LETTER.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 19, 2007 Posted March 19, 2007 Hi chris_tribble, Take a look here UPDATE - internet survey of M8 experience - more good than bad!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
peterv Posted March 19, 2007 Share #2 Posted March 19, 2007 Thanks Chris, interesting results, so far. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted March 19, 2007 Share #3 Posted March 19, 2007 Thanks for the efforts Chris ... interesting and encouraging results ...... reported problems and failures seem less than i had expected from reading several forums. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted March 19, 2007 Share #4 Posted March 19, 2007 Chris, Again, thanks. Funny you should mention the M7 -- I've had more quirky (but nonfatal) problems with it than the M8. Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted March 19, 2007 This is the main reason for doing the work - I was getting very concerned that the legitimate anger of some participants was overshadowing the very real qualities and achievements of the M - as an example I was talking to a very experienced photojournalist yesterday (Jason Howe - http://www.conflictpics.co.uk/index.htm). He's going to buy an M8 because he wants to get back to the simplicity of RF for reportage. He also knows people who were using M8s in the recent war in Lebanon... People like Jason are working in extreme conditions and getting value from the M8. He agrees that the Auto WB really needs sorting out as he needs in camera JPEGS for his kind of work, but after an afternoon working with my M8, he's hooked and wants one now...And Jason BUYS his own kit - it's not given to him by an agency or manufacturer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted March 19, 2007 Share #6 Posted March 19, 2007 Well done ! I agree that these surveys are important as they give a much more accurate depition of the "true" level of errors etc... This will be good news for both Leica and all of us but Leica must still work harder to extirpate the remaining problems. I still suspect that the electronic shutdowns are a firmware issue... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted March 19, 2007 Share #7 Posted March 19, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) This was a useful effort. But I think the label "more good than bad" is only literally true. By these stats, almost 30 percent of the owners have experienced either total failure or intermittent failure. I experienced intermittent failure for a while, juggled batteries, etc., and then it locked up for good. I suspect all of this 30 percent will need to send the camera in for repairs, and that it's likely that many others are lightly used, and simply haven't experienced the problems yet. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is a failure rate that would be unacceptable for any product. My most serious question is, "Are things getting better?" Are later cameras less likely to fail than the earlier batch? JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted March 19, 2007 Share #8 Posted March 19, 2007 Actually the failure rates in the survey are pretty horrendous. 25+% failure rate would be considered an absolute disaster by any manufacturer. This is not a scientific sample and there is no way of nowing what the actual numbers are but this survey certainly does not provide any comfort. My M8 has been problem free so far, hopefully things are improving and Leica now has a handle on the fatal flaws. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted March 19, 2007 Share #9 Posted March 19, 2007 Actually the failure rates in the survey are pretty horrendous. 25+% failure rate would be considered an absolute disaster by any manufacturer. This is not a scientific sample and there is no way of nowing what the actual numbers are but this survey certainly does not provide any comfort. My M8 has been problem free so far, hopefully things are improving and Leica now has a handle on the fatal flaws. Hank, According to Chris' figures, there were 26 reported failures out of 271 responses. That's a little less than 10 percent, which is still too high, but nowhere near 25 percent. Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 19, 2007 Share #10 Posted March 19, 2007 I think the only useful statistic excludes out of the box failures. The big question that everyone seems to be concerned about is reliability in the field. All manufacturers have DOA units, and too many is an inconvenience and a drag, but the question is: once it's working, can it be depended on to keep going? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share #11 Posted March 19, 2007 My most serious question is, "Are things getting better?" Are later cameras less likely to fail than the earlier batch? JC Interpreting these numbers is tough because we have no idea of - the numbers of cameras sold - the numbers of cameras that have failed and which haven't been reported here What we do know from the data so far is: 1/ Camera was delivered with a mechanical fault (e.g. shutter failure) 12 3.83% This should never happen - it's absurd that pre-despatch checks don't weed this out. This is basic QA 2/ Camera failed from new - it never comes to life. 1 0.32% Same issue as above - but it does mean that only 4% of our sample population have had fatal flaws... Too many, but NOT 25% or anything like... 3/ Camera froze and never recovered 14 4.47% Camera freezes but recovers after replacing the battery 47 15.02% These are where Leica really has to get its act together - 20% of the sample have displayed confidence eroding behaviour - something I've never seen on my pro Canon bodies. My feeling is that it's to do with the battery design, and I really do wish that Leica hadn't gone with proprietary technology here. 4/ No major problems 181 57.83% This proportion should be higher... but it's an important balance to the negatives above. 5/ Looking through the 48 "other" some are related to battery problems, but others are a mix of more mechanical problems ranging from mis-alignment through to the frameline selector falling off!. This is good news from the electrics point of view, but very bad news in terms of Leica QA. The company's reputation is at risk if this kind of poor QA became a norm. I'm a Brit and old enough to know what it was like to live with a Triumph Bonneville... NOT the way to go... I hope this balances things a little. I'm posting a summary of the text information also - with the serial numbers excluded. It also makes interesting reading. And will be even more interesting if we can get over 300 in there! Best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted March 19, 2007 Share #12 Posted March 19, 2007 ... 3/ Camera freezes but recovers after replacing the battery 47 15.02% [This is] where Leica really has to get its act together - 20% of the sample have displayed confidence eroding behaviour - something I've never seen on my pro Canon bodies. My feeling is that it's to do with the battery design, and I really do wish that Leica hadn't gone with proprietary technology here. What he said! It makes NO sense whatsoever for Leica to use their own battery design. They should have OEM'd the battery, battery seat, and charger. ANd, if they did this, all they have to do is say so, and we'll all stop being so offended. If the problems with freezing are all related to the battery, then it's Leica's fault. If they'd gone to any of the big battery manufacturers, they could have blamed it all on someone else -- PLUS, they could have chosen a proven battery and charger. Chris -- thanks for this survey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share #13 Posted March 19, 2007 I'm posting a summary of the text information also - with the serial numbers excluded. It also makes interesting reading. And will be even more interesting if we can get over 300 in there! This is going to take more time than I have at the moment - it's long and a hassle to weed the confidential data out of the HTML report structure. I'll get round to doing it at the end of the week... Off to work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted March 19, 2007 Share #14 Posted March 19, 2007 I was reacting to the: 72.31% chose the following options : * No major problems * Camera freezes but recovers after replacing the battery That leaves 25+ % with problems? Included in the 72.31% OK were respondents that marked "Camera freezes but recovers after replacing the battery"? Not much point in arguing about percentages as this was not a scientific survey so for all we know there are much less problems then the survey implies. However looking at this survey, any way you slice it the reliability implied by the survey is totally unacceptable. I would think that the situation with cameras shipping now is much, much better then it was when you include the cameras shipped in the first couple of months, so some substantial progress has been made. I am most interested in looking forward - aiding in an effort to arrive at the point where the M8 is considered bullet-proof reliable. 1.10 will be the first firmware release that deals with all the major issues and hopefully that will be where we turn the corner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted March 19, 2007 Share #15 Posted March 19, 2007 Camera freezes but recovers after replacing the battery 47 15.02% THis is the largest % of the +/- 25% "problems" ...... but is it really a large % ? how problematic is this? I had occasional freezings with all cameras i ever owned ..( 3 Canons a Nikon and an Epson R-d1) .......... wonder how high the percentages Error #99 among Canon owners is ..... i had many of those with my 1D & 1Ds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lode Posted March 19, 2007 Share #16 Posted March 19, 2007 This is the main reason for doing the work - I was getting very concerned that the legitimate anger of some participants was overshadowing the very real qualities and achievements of the M . I’m not so happy with that statement. I agree that the legitimate anger of some participants should not overshadow the very real qualities and achievements of the M, and I’m happy that your survey brings things to real proportions. But the first reason should be to inform Leica as precisely as possible about the serious issues so that they can respond to it and the final result is a reliable camera. Lode Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted March 19, 2007 Share #17 Posted March 19, 2007 THis is the largest % of the +/- 25% "problems" ...... but is it really a large % ? how problematic is this?I had occasional freezings with all cameras i ever owned ..( 3 Canons a Nikon and an Epson R-d1) .......... wonder how high the percentages Error #99 among Canon owners is ..... i had many of those with my 1D & 1Ds I've worked with three Nikons for years and I've never had a "freeze." I had several freezes with an Olympus 5050, but that wasn't a serious camera and I never tried to use it for serious work. How problematic is this?: Well, if you're a regular street shooter you can expect to average about one really, really good frame a month and, if you're both persistent and lucky, about one absolute world-beater a year. If the "small-percentage" failure comes on either of these occasions it's absolutely problematic! Evidently the M8 has a lot of great things going for it, but it's not a "professional" camera that you can depend on at this point. "More good than bad" just doesn't cut it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share #18 Posted March 19, 2007 Lode and others - I fully agree that we can't start counting dancing angels on the pinhead of this survey - there are SO many variables. The accounts of unreliability are essential information for Leica and are not good news. One thing that I'm finding when I run a couple of cross tabs is that early adopters do seem to have suffered more than late adopters. The two jpegs below are for Camera #1 and Camera #2 - hence the difference in the numbers... Cause for hope? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/19221-update-internet-survey-of-m8-experience-more-good-than-bad/?do=findComment&comment=205955'>More sharing options...
j. borger Posted March 19, 2007 Share #19 Posted March 19, 2007 I've worked with three Nikons for years and I've never had a "freeze." . Amazing! Than my Canon 1D and 1Ds were not up to Nikons professional standards ...... i can't imagine any Canon shooter out here who never encountered an error #99 ......! To put things in perspective. I shot the 1Ds and 1D for 3 years .... and i estimate about 10-15 errosr #99 (which actually is a freeze up). I have the M8 now from end october and it happened once ......! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted March 19, 2007 Share #20 Posted March 19, 2007 Chris, If the battery freezing is a problem, the perhaps the firmware version is important. You say above that early adopters may have more problems than later adopters. If firmware properly addressed the battery problem, then firmware may be responsible for the fix. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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