IR Magenta and 1.092 without filter

[jonoslack]

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HI There

I noticed that some had been saying that their new WATE's didn't seem to throw up so much IR magenta, so I thought I'd do a comparison between different lenses (maybe Leica have slipped in a little IR filtration on the quiet). However, I'm quite sure that it's not the case. Different lenses in the same lighting conditions seemed to produce very much similar results.

 

While I was testing, I realised that Emma's troublesome ski jacket didn't seem to cause as much grief as I remembered, so I had a proper look, and although I'm not willing to revert firmware versions, I can only assume that they have done something in the firmware.

 

This shot was taken RAW, using the WATE, of my darling wife and her troublesome jacket (I'm slowly sabotaging the zips so she won't be able to wear it anymore). All are 'processed' in Aperture

 

First shot - this is the straight conversion - you can see a little magenta in the jacket (much less than I remember in previous shots) , and the red boots are a little pinker than they oughtta be:

 

 

This second shot is using my standard colour 'correction' profile - the main gist of which is increasing the red hue by 10% - no change in the purple tinge to the jacket:

 

 

Finally, I've dropped the magenta saturation by about 40%:

 

 

I'd maintain that the colour here is very accurate (much better than I would have expected from any of my Nikon gear), and the jacket which has caused so much problem in the past is pretty much it's normal dodgy, shiny black.

 

Has anyone else got the feeling that 1.092 has improved the situation using lenses in daylight without a filter?

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

I know that 1.092 the colors have been tweaked by leica which they told me that at PMA and it is a improvement and Edmund, Hank and Pascal created some new profiles and testing that show the improvements. I'm afraid we will not get rid of the IR issue and the use of the filters will be the norm. But from what i have seen there is certainly been some color improvements

[Riley]

good news if its true

you might try some foliage too

if you can find an evergreen tree or two this season

[Guest magyarman]

 

I'd maintain that the colour here is very accurate (much better than I would have expected from any of my Nikon gear), and the jacket which has caused so much problem in the past is pretty much it's normal dodgy, shiny black.

 

 

You thing is last one looks black? Than you need to see doctor your eyes. What I thing was Leica does with 1,092 make it similarly to Jamie profile oba inside camera. Nobody try same shot with first 1,09 than 1,092 ora I thing will be see some little bat comes also to other colour, also will not correct it bat from IR other from black in cloths. Also possibility if will be use IR filter what take away IR before, 1,092 mabe will make too much grin?

[Riley]

I'll just run those comments from the work experience photographer through my Enigma decoding machine and get back to you.

[jonoslack]

You thing is last one looks black? Than you need to see doctor your eyes. What I thing was Leica does with 1,092 make it similarly to Jamie profile oba inside camera. Nobody try same shot with first 1,09 than 1,092 ora I thing will be see some little bat comes also to other colour, also will not correct it bat from IR other from black in cloths. Also possibility if will be use IR filter what take away IR before, 1,092 mabe will make too much grin?

Hi Blasko - did I say it looked black? I said that it looked 'dodgy shiny black' - which isn't black either - one of the by products of the Leica is that I've really been looking at blacks - my nice black phone for instance is definitely purple with sparkly bits (I've never taken a picture of it, that's my eyes telling me).

[jonoslack]

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I know that 1.092 the colors have been tweaked by leica which they told me that at PMA and it is a improvement and Edmund, Hank and Pascal created some new profiles and testing that show the improvements. I'm afraid we will not get rid of the IR issue and the use of the filters will be the norm. But from what i have seen there is certainly been some color improvements

Hi Guy - I've been away for a week or so, so I missed the new profiles.

I'm still using Aperture, and apart from the fiddle of converting the files, I'm still liking the results.

[jonoslack]

good news if its true

you might try some foliage too

if you can find an evergreen tree or two this season

 

Hi Riley

You want greens - I got greens!

 

I think they're really good now - slightly Kodachrome, and decidedly delicious - of course the real test will come with the spring splurge in a month or so, but these will do for now.

 

Incidentally, I'm hooked on the WATE; the definition is breathtaking - right to the corners; a splendid lens:

 

 

 

 

and before anyone mentions magenta in the branches of the trees, they should go out and look at a silver birch at this time of year!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Jono i just got the WATE also and it is a splendid lens , have a thread going on some test shots. Take a look when you get a chance.

[Artichoke]

I do think the latest firmware improved matters, but I still wonder whether black is really black

as Jono said, I have become much more sensitive to blacks in life (and some greens for that matter)

I think the newest firmware gets closer, but the shift without an IR filter is still present

Jamie's profiles help a great deal (thanks again!) but I am still waiting on my filters to arrive (my 55 will be here in a few days from Tony Rose & the freebie Leicas will arrive GKW) and I look forward to seeing what this will do

I find black less a problem than foliage greens as it is easily corrected

generally I have found greens quite accurate, but certain foliage, in certain light (strong direct sun) takes on an olive tinge (excess yellow??) that is more problematic at least for me ...my Fuji S3 gets accurate & vibrant greens, so maybe I have been spoiled

here is an example from the M8

this was carefully colored balanced using custom balance & a white card

compare to the greens I get with my S3 here Not Orchids Photo Gallery by Artichoke Vinagrette at pbase.com

along with a larger version & shooting information

I may be making more of this than I should, as I have only just noted it & not really done any careful comparisons

[Jamie Roberts]

Jono--

 

Great shots as always--thanks for posting your colour recipes, too!

 

I've posted elsewhere that yes--1.092 is really a lot better with synthetic blacks. Truly; I can't believe the difference between my own black ski jacket under tungsten before and after the firmware (and hardware) upgrade.

 

I noticed it by accident messing around with tungsten light. I saw my synthetic black jacket under the lights, and I also had some black studio umbrellas there...--they were just like the shot you posted--almost, but not quite, black.

 

What they've seem to have done when I compare cc charts and synthetics is to raise the blue and lower the red level in neutrals. That's ok; the original response was not correct even in filtered neutrals.

 

So I still get magenta tinges, but not the kind of jaw-dropping magenta I got before, unless the light is very, very strong IR.

 

@ Arthur--you're welcome (as is everyone); I haven't updated the non-filtered profile because they're still playing with the colour response.

 

Once 1.10 is released I'll do it. Since those profiles are only partly automated (and mostly hand tuned), they take a fair bit of time to do, and I'll need folks to hammer on them once they're out.

[eronald]

 

I'd maintain that the colour here is very accurate (much better than I would have expected from any of my Nikon gear), and the jacket which has caused so much problem in the past is pretty much it's normal dodgy, shiny black.

 

Has anyone else got the feeling that 1.092 has improved the situation using lenses in daylight without a filter?

 

Jono, I assume that your eyesight is at least as good as that of the original reviewers of the M8, but the difference is that you are honest about what you see on the screen.

 

Edmund

[Riley]

Hi Riley

You want greens - I got greens!

 

I think they're really good now - slightly Kodachrome, and decidedly delicious - of course the real test will come with the spring splurge in a month or so, but these will do for now.

 

Incidentally, I'm hooked on the WATE; the definition is breathtaking - right to the corners; a splendid lens:

 

and before anyone mentions magenta in the branches of the trees, they should go out and look at a silver birch at this time of year!

 

those greens do look a lot better, the first where almost frost bitten whites !

oh man, i still hate kodachrome ... ;(

[stunsworth]

Jamie, they may have improved the magenta issue, but it's still an issue. The shot below was taken with my Nocti and the latest firmware. The cloth the dog was standing on was black. I'm still waiting for the Leica filter to arrive, the sooner it does so the better <grin>

 

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Hey lady you may not want to keep that leg up for to long. LOL

[stunsworth]

It's what she's doing with her right hand that worries me ;-)

[eronald]

Jamie, they may have improved the magenta issue, but it's still an issue. The shot below was taken with my Nocti and the latest firmware. The cloth the dog was standing on was black. I'm still waiting for the Leica filter to arrive, the sooner it does so the better <grin>

 

[ATTACH]30096[/ATTACH]

 

That's a DOG ?

 

Edmund

[jonoslack]

It's what she's doing with her right hand that worries me ;-)

WOW - so am I - you only have to look into that dog's eyes to realise how bad it is!

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[Jamie Roberts]

ROFLMAO!!

 

That's quite the picture, and jaw-dropping in its own way--magenta or not!

 

Poor puppy

 

Anyway--Steve--yeah, that's pretty darned magenta, isn't it Still, I have noticed much better results than before. I'm sure with earlier firmware her arms would have been magenta as well, or more magenta, or something.

 

The funny thing is for me it was like Jono; I was actually doing a test for noise when I noticed the stuff that's usually purple just wasn't.

 

Ah well. Where *are* those filters!?

[adan]

Yes, 1.092 tweaked the color mapping, and no, it didn't really solve the IR problem per se.

 

Among other things, 1.092 no longer provides an "embedded" profile in .dngs for Adobe CR to use - instead it uses Adobe's own profile from ACR 3.6. The net result is a more cyan image overall (when I opened my first 1.092 images under my old profile and standard white balance settings created using the colors from 1.06, the images looked like they'd been shot on years-out-of-date Kodachrome 200 - they were that cyan).

 

A quick reprofiling with the Gretag card got the color back in shape, and it is clear that, among other things, reds have more yellow in them. My old profile had the red calibration hue dialed to +30 (more yellow, +90 under tungsten); files from 1.092 only need +15 to correctly render the Gretag red patch.

 

So the skin tones in Steve's doggie shot (and the red boots) are more on target. But I still see a fair amount of dark magenta in other parts of the doggie shot - woman's sleeves, misc. blur at right border, woman's outfit half in frame on left.

 

Other colors similarly require less adjustment from zero in my new profile, and my new default WB for daylight is 5300K (zero tint) whereas my old daylight standard was far more cyan - 4800K (cooler) with a whopping minus-25 (greener) tint correction. This is what Leica meant when they listed "better color using ACR" among the attributes of 1.092.

 

So 1.092 corrects for some of the errors in COLORS that were a problem under the older firmware - but neutrals of the right (or would that be "wrong"?) materials still go purple. I'd assume those same corrections also have an effect in jpegs or when using C1.

 

Personally. I expect to go through at least two more profile sessions with my Gretag in the next 4-6 weeks: once for the IR filters, which will likely shift colors around a bit, and again once v1.10 becomes available, since I expect it will further correct color for the IR filters (everywhere, not just the cyan vignetting), and I will have to dial back my own corrections.

 

It's kind of a pain - but looking at the M8 files after profiling is a great anesthetic!