colonel Posted October 25, 2012 Share #21 Posted October 25, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Some folk are hinting here that the M-E is merely a stop gap for the M I certainly don't think so, as the M9 would have been just as cheap to keep going Leica is simply doing what many other successful companies do, including Apple, which is to tout an older model as the cheaper option this makes perfect sense on so many levels, especially: 1. Save retooling and development costs 2. Keeps current customers feeling better until at least to the next version after the next version (M250) If I had no M9 I would be sorely tempted by an M-E vs a more expensive new M240 rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Hi colonel, Take a look here New M-240 quick review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted October 25, 2012 Share #22 Posted October 25, 2012 I would imagine that Plan A was to have the camera available to buy (subject to a waiting list) immediately after Photokina but this timetable must have slipped slightly. Not that I know of. Before photokina, it was kind of a consensus even here in this forum that a new M10 introduced in September would probably reach the stores some time in early 2013. And as far as I can tell, that was indeed what was planned. So Leica is still going with Plan A. And no, the M-E isn’t a stop gap model. It will continue to be available as a CCD-based (and somewhat more affordable) alternative to the new M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 25, 2012 Share #23 Posted October 25, 2012 Not that I know of. Before photokina, it was kind of a consensus even here in this forum that a new M10 introduced in September would probably reach the stores some time in early 2013. And as far as I can tell, that was indeed what was planned. So Leica is still going with Plan A. And no, the M-E isn’t a stop gap model. It will continue to be available as a CCD-based (and somewhat more affordable) alternative to the new M. The cameras expected at Photokina were M10 - S3 - X2 - D-Lux 6 and a mirrorless model and a couple of lenses... I have no doubt that the original plan was to announce M10 and make it available for sale on a similar swift basis to the 2011 Paris M9-P launch. However by the time of the 2012 Berlin event Leica had ditched its short lived "announce only when available" policy. The decision to drop the 10 in M10 and slot in an M-E was a relatively late decision. NB the Patent date for M10. In Paris Dr K was hinting at mirrorless and in Berlin he said expect a family of M's.The affordable camera that Leica will never make is now the M-E and so it is also the mirrorless that never was. So in the best sense of the word the M-E is both a stop-gap for M and a poor substitute for mirrorless. Announcing a prototype M at Photokina was never the best idea but you can't change the date unlike Paris and Berlin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 25, 2012 Share #24 Posted October 25, 2012 The cameras expected at Photokina were M10 - S3 - X2 - D-Lux 6 and a mirrorless model and a couple of lenses... There had already been some indications that Leica wouldn’t introduce a new mirrorless system at this year’s photokina. The X2 was already old news by that time. And by the way the M-E was expected, too – the barebones CCD model people were speculating about in the weeks before photokina. I have no doubt that the original plan was to announce M10 and make it available for sale on a similar swift basis to the 2011 Paris M9-P launch. However by the time of the 2012 Berlin event Leica had ditched its short lived "announce only when available" policy. There had never been such a policy. It’s quite simple: When a vendor can set the date of an announcement, they can set it so that it coincides with the new product’s availability. But if the date is fixed by a third party, as is the case with photokina, they must decide between not showing anything new or announcing new products even when they will reach the market only a couple of months later (like they did with the S2, for example). That doesn’t mean Leica ever expected to have the new M ready by September. The decision to drop the 10 in M10 and slot in an M-E was a relatively late decision. How would you know? (And what’s in a name – had Leica decided to stick with “M10”, it would have been the same camera that is now known as the “M”.) The affordable camera that Leica will never make is now the M-E and so it is also the mirrorless that never was. So in the best sense of the word the M-E is both a stop-gap for M and a poor substitute for mirrorless. The M-E as a stop gap for a mirrorless camera? How does that even make sense? And by “affordable” Leica referred to something significantly cheaper than the M-E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angora Posted October 25, 2012 Share #25 Posted October 25, 2012 Now if only they’d do a Hammertone M-E with the new sensor I like his conclusion. The M10 (M240) should deliver an improved image quality (esp. at high ISO) but it'll come with additional buttons which look odd. Not as odd as an M5 but still. Oh well, at least there's the MM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 25, 2012 Share #26 Posted October 25, 2012 There had already been some indications that Leica wouldn’t introduce a new mirrorless system at this year’s photokina. The X2 was already old news by that time.And by the way the M-E was expected, too – the barebones CCD model people were speculating about in the weeks before photokina.. Correct but I'm not talking about weeks before Photokina. All the stuff I mentioned, M10 - S3 - X2 - D-Lux 6 and a mirrorless model and a couple of lenses...was expected post Paris. There had never been such a policy. It’s quite simple: When a vendor can set the date of an announcement, they can set it so that it coincides with the new product’s availability. But if the date is fixed by a third party, as is the case with photokina, they must decide between not showing anything new or announcing new products even when they will reach the market only a couple of months later (like they did with the S2, for example). That doesn’t mean Leica ever expected to have the new M ready by September. It's quite simple there was such a policy (to launch only when products were ready). And now there isn't. As I said - Announcing a prototype M at Photokina was never the best idea but you can't change the date unlike Paris and Berlin. How would you know? (And what’s in a name – had Leica decided to stick with “M10”, it would have been the same camera that is now known as the “M”.) I know it was a relatively late decision because I know when it was called M10. That is correct it was and is the same camera. Different name. The M-E as a stop gap for a mirrorless camera? How does that even make sense? And by “affordable” Leica referred to something significantly cheaper than the M-E. It doesn't make sense because I didn't say it was a stop gap for a mirrorless camera. It is a stop gap for M. It is also an alternative. It's also a very important camera which is being given a very hard sell for a few months. It is correct that Leica referred to something significantly cheaper but that would have damaged M sales. Neither was the M ready. So M-E was born. Simples. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 25, 2012 Share #27 Posted October 25, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) It is correct that Leica referred to something significantly cheaper but that would have damaged M sales. Neither was the M ready. So M-E was born. Simples. Again, I think simply Leica have adopted the Apple model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted October 25, 2012 Share #28 Posted October 25, 2012 Again, I think simply Leica have adopted the Apple model Well why wouldn't they? It saved Apple from bankruptcy, and within 10 years they went from being broke and technically bankrupt to being the number #1 technology company in the world. Anyhow. Did you guys get any nice shots today? Or were you discussing gear more than shooting photographs? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 25, 2012 Share #29 Posted October 25, 2012 Correct but I'm not talking about weeks before Photokina. All the stuff I mentioned, M10 - S3 - X2 - D-Lux 6 and a mirrorless model and a couple of lenses...was expected post Paris. The X2 was introduced in May (together with the entirely unexpected M Monochrom). While Leica was quoted by BJP as working on a mirrorless system and that there might be something they could show at photokina, this was never officially confirmed. It's quite simple there was such a policy (to launch only when products were ready). When would that have been? For example, the S2 was announced in September 2008, a full year before its actual introduction. The M Monochrom was announced in May and hit the stores a couple of months later. The X1 was announced 3 months before you could actually buy it. And so on. It doesn't make sense because I didn't say it was a stop gap for a mirrorless camera. So what sense is there in your statement that “The affordable camera that Leica will never make is now the M-E and so it is also the mirrorless that never was.” It is a stop gap for M. It is also an alternative. If Leica had needed a stop gap for the M, the simplest solution would have been to keep the M9. But that’s not what they wanted. It is correct that Leica referred to something significantly cheaper but that would have damaged M sales. Much of the technology of the M-E dates back to the M8, i.e. it is 6 years old. How could a more affordable M-E have damaged sales of the state-of-the-art M? But there is simply no way Leica could manufacture a truly affordable M-type camera. (And what use would it be: If you cannot afford an M body you cannot afford M lenses either.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 26, 2012 Share #30 Posted October 26, 2012 And what use would it be: If you cannot afford an M body you cannot afford M lenses either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 26, 2012 Share #31 Posted October 26, 2012 The M Monochrom was announced in May and hit the stores a couple of months later. Yes, but the launch was accompanied by DNGs being made available and there was a real sense that the camera was a finished product. The Photokina launch – with glued-in SD cards and a real dearth of anything to demonstrate the M's image quality – has much more of a "sorry, we're not quite ready yet but here's the camera anyway" feel about it. I know you are far better informed than I am with regard to Leica product development, Michael, but I simply do not believe that the Photokina launch as it turned out was the original Plan A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 26, 2012 Share #32 Posted October 26, 2012 Dear Michael I think the best way forward here is for you to believe that I am making all this stuff up. Best wishes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 26, 2012 Share #33 Posted October 26, 2012 When would that have been? For example, the S2 was announced in September 2008, a full year before its actual introduction. The M Monochrom was announced in May and hit the stores a couple of months later. The X1 was announced 3 months before you could actually buy it. And so on. Dear Michael If you're looking for the answer it's best to look for products which were available at launch not those which were unavailable. If you read my first post carefully you will find the answer is 2011... but you don't have to believe it. Best wishes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted October 26, 2012 Share #34 Posted October 26, 2012 The ME was born because Leica ran out of chrome and black paint (or had to reserve it for the M and MM.) and had soma navy gray paint left in a cellar in Solms Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikonJeff Posted October 26, 2012 Share #35 Posted October 26, 2012 I was in NYC yesterday for Photo Plus Expo at the Jacob Javits Center and had the opportunity to play with the M. I was amazed at how smooth and quiet the shutter was in comparison to my M9. Handled very nice, quick and easy to navigate the menus. I agree that the shutter release and processing speed was much improved and the LCD - finally a nice big good resolution screen! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 26, 2012 Share #36 Posted October 26, 2012 Much of the technology of the M-E dates back to the M8, i.e. it is 6 years old. How could a more affordable M-E have damaged sales of the state-of-the-art M? But there is simply no way Leica could manufacture a truly affordable M-type camera. (And what use would it be: If you cannot afford an M body you cannot afford M lenses either.) Dear Michael I think you're getting confused by reading my posts and then quoting something else at random. I didn't mention a more affordable M-E with M8 and M3 technology damaging M sales. The M-E is stop gap and an alternative to M, which takes the same expensive lenses. I am referring to a new camera which did not get into production which would have damaged M sales and which would have taken a new range of affordable M lenses as well as the expensive ones. Of course I'm making all this up. Best wishes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 26, 2012 Share #37 Posted October 26, 2012 I was in NYC yesterday for Photo Plus Expo at the Jacob Javits Center and had the opportunity to play with the M. I was amazed at how smooth and quiet the shutter was in comparison to my M9. Handled very nice, quick and easy to navigate the menus. I agree that the shutter release and processing speed was much improved and the LCD - finally a nice big good resolution screen! Did you check the exposure metering? Really interested to hear what this is like - also the experience of working with the EVF ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted October 26, 2012 Share #38 Posted October 26, 2012 That is a sexy looking camera, if ever there was one. Roll on December for image samples. Excited much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikonJeff Posted October 26, 2012 Share #39 Posted October 26, 2012 Did you check the exposure metering? Really interested to hear what this is like - also the experience of working with the EVF ... Chris, I unfortunately did not. I did shoot it ISO3200 and from the LCD perspective the noise wasn't bad in the shadows, but again it was on the LCD. My biggest thing was speed, and handling which are much improved as is the shutter noise. IMHO it is much butter - markedly closer to a film M than ever before. the same that I looked at did not have an EVF on it and for me that's an option I don't have any interest in. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted October 28, 2012 Share #40 Posted October 28, 2012 The shutter does indeed sound and feel great, best feature. I tried the evf and didn't feel it particularly good. Shots looked great in the LCD but that means nothing. If I didn't have an m9 I would be tempted but I do and unless there is a leap in IQ I will stick to the m9 and spend the money elsewhere Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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