Is Diglloyd talking down the prices of used S2 equipment s.

[glenerrolrd]

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Diglloyd has an excellent blog and fee based tests of the S2 ,M9 and most of the current Nikon,canon and zeiss gear . I have used his tests consistently and although its rubs me wrong to pay so much for his insights ....I have found it well worthwhile in not only picking my gear but also in understanding the strengths and weaknesses of gear I already have.

 

Recently however he has taken to tabloid journalism and is reporting that used S2 bodies will drop below $8K this year . ( A pretty sensational headline). Since his website is well read especially by advanced amateurs on the fence over the S2 ....it has certainly scared away potential buyers . His reliable sources remain unnamed and it is unclear as to basis for his projection . But don t worry if you ask him ...he will tell you “he stands by his predictions” and “they are good for his readers” . We obviously disagree which is no big deal .

 

The drop in the value of used MF equipment is nothing new before Photokina . Dealers can t sit on cameras that retail at $23-28k just for the body . It is also not unusual for the fair market value of used gear will drop toward 50% of the newer model . Lenses of course fare much better but they will also drop as new sales slow just before a new model . How this shakes out is driven by many things and certainly if the S3 is released as expected. .....How much better will it be . (another topic but if starts as a 40MP CMOS camera ....I will pass on this upgrade...if its 70-80MP and can produce IQ that utilizes the lenses thats a different situation ).

 

If you know much about the retail camera business ..you know that much of the discussion across the counter is just that discussion. The retailer believes he has great insight because he talks directly to the Leica sales rep . If you ever meet a leica rep ask them how they feel about being in the loop on new developments ..they aren t . Its not a slam on them ..you can t go to the Apple Store and ask ..hey whens the Mac Pro coming out ?

 

Nobody knows how the used market will shake out and its not out the question that the s2 could drop to $8K .....if it does it will kill a good part of there market .

 

Like all predictions ..there is no penalty for forecasting gloom and doom . You can only look brilliant by predicting out of the ordinary results .

 

Does anyone have any facts about anything directly from Leica on price reductions to the dealers ?

[andyedward]

The price of new S2 equipment is certainly coming down, as evidenced by an S2 + 70 summarit now being priced the same as the S2 body alone only a month ago in the UK (Leica S2 camera + Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 lens on Dale Photographic)

 

My interest in the S2 comes in the form of the 70 summarit, which unfortunately doesnt have an aperture ring, so any drop in the S2 body price is a welcome change in my book. If the S2 body drops far enough, I may be tempted back to run digital alongside my upcoming film M

[glenerrolrd]

Maybe I should have made my OP shorter and thereby clearer .

 

When manufacturers give pretty clear intention that a new generation of camera is expected ......don t we all expect that prices for the existing (soon to be old version ) will come down . Existing dealer stock and maybe some from the factory will be marked down ,rebates created or just better deals offered . Demos will be sold at healthy discounts .

 

If you follow HB they have done this periodically as new models get near introduction .

 

These discounts follow a pattern of initially 20-25% off new and used equipment moves toward 50-60% of the new camera pricing . The M s don t seem to be openly discounted but they too follow this pattern as a new model becomes apparent .

 

Best to speak in fair market value of the price at which goods typical will trade ....you can always find an exception . But an S2 at $8K seems extreme and following a normal depreciation pattern you would expect used S2 to trade at $13-15K range for the body alone.

 

Finding it hard to support the $8K forecast as anything other than mean spirited speculation . What sources or expert insight is even possible .

[LeicaR10]

I have found after being a paying member to Diglloyd's site, that his analysis and arrogance are both flawed and he suffers a personality flaw. Most recently he compared a Leica M 35mm f/1.4 to a Zeiss M 35mm f/2 lens. Apples and oranges, then he wrote a very arrogant reply to a comment. This wasn't the first time either. So this caused myself and business associates to terminate our subscriptions. He is not in our opinion worth reading. You will find that you, the user, are the best source of determining what is right for you. Or, simply ask users in this (S2) forum for their advice.

 

Best advice on the S2 prices is to sit tight. Unless you have a major need for an S3, the prices usually do drop for about the first year, then do come back up. This happened to the M8s. Same will happen with the M9s. The S2 is an excellent camera and optics are simply superb. Nothing comes close to it. My opinion if you have a true need for a new S3, then keep your money in your wallet or use if for a great trip to some place you can exercise your photographic creativity with your S2 system.

 

Last, if Leica S3 sales don't follow through due to sticker shock or ailing world economy, you never know what Leica might do. Leica might offer an upgrade program like their CS lenses. Just a thought...a good one at that, hope Leica is reading this forum..hint, hint.

[stephan_w]

there are some website claming a fall of prices for the S2.

 

This is not a difficult prediction that prices will drop some day, on the other hand I would not speculate to get a S2 for a bargain in a soon future:

 

- The S2 is a well balanced camera, that has no real downside. For an actual S2-User, there is no real need for an upgrade in the near future.

- Most actual S2-users spent a lot of money in the new system, and are probably not willing to spend another 20 grands in a new camera. And there are some missing lenses that will come out and need to be payed as well.

- The S2 is not a consumer camera, it is a tool, mostly owned by professionals and intelligent people, that don't run on every possible change.

- This said, the quantities of S2 comming on the market will be small.

- Even if anounced on photokina, an eventual S3 will take it's time comming to the customers. We have seen in the past that it can take some long months to get the new stuff from Leica, especially for the S2-System. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see the new S* on the shelves before summer 2013. (rember, there is an M10 roumored as well)

 

well maybe it is wishful thinking but my bet is that we will not see any S2 falling down under 14-12 k soon.

 

An if so, then I would buy very probably a second body as back-up and for outdoor use

[wattsy]

he has taken to tabloid journalism and is reporting that used S2 bodies will drop below $8K this year

 

It does seem a bit unlikely for this happen this year but maybe Diglloyd has the inside scoop on something coming at Photokina? There must be some information that he is privy to in order to make such a bold prediction.

[glenerrolrd]

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It does seem a bit unlikely for this happen this year but maybe Diglloyd has the inside scoop on something coming at Photokina? There must be some information that he is privy to in order to make such a bold prediction.[/quote

 

He claims this is not the case but rather a reflection of the “over priced S2” coming down to normal pricing .

[Eastgreenlander]

I see no reason for Leica to put down the prices. Leica consider the camera a success. If you look at the case of the Leica X1 you see the retail prices never went down not even after the X2 was announced and also in the case of the M8 vs M9.

[stephan_w]

If the prices come down as predicted, I will consider to buy a second body.

 

Actually, I don't take out my S2 on outdoor shootings (taking the D800E instead), and I regret it each time I do so. The files are so much better from the S2 (especially because of a reliable and precise AF) and with the Hassi-Adapter I get more flexibility in focal length now.

[Eastgreenlander]

I find it highly unlikely the "prediction" will ever happen. Few or even no products of leica has failen i retail price and a new product line are always introduced with a higher price than its predecessor.

[glenerrolrd]

To be fair the prediction was ......used S2 bodies will sell below $8 before year end . The rationale was that Leica and their dealers would reduce the sale price of new S2 s and the introduction of the S3 would increase the number of used S2 bodies for sale .

 

No question dealers have been selling their demos and current stock at significant discounts .

 

There is no evidence at least in the USA to support the type of fire sale forecast by LLoyd . Doesn t mean some will not trade in their used S2 for whatever they can get ....but at normal market prices ..??????

 

I expect the S3 to be an evolutionary product(as predicted on Leica Rumors) and primarily aimed at the transition to CMOS . The advantages of CMOS (live view,video ,higher ISO ) will not be enough for me to upgrade . However if the sensor is in the 70-80MP range then I will be on the list .

[Laudrup11]

I'm looking to trade in my M system for the S system here in the UK, but after being a subscriber to Lloyd's site and reading the suspected price crash it has left me a bit wary. That's the problem with the internet sometimes, a comment can be like a match, carelessly discard one and you can have a wildfire on your hands. A dealer here has an S2 + 70mm for £10,995, but with Photokina around the corner and the S2 supposedly being replaced I don't know whether to just wait or dive in before my M9 has lost a lot of trade in value.

[wattsy]

A dealer here has an S2 + 70mm for £10,995, but with Photokina around the corner and the S2 supposedly being replaced I don't know whether to just wait or dive in before my M9 has lost a lot of trade in value.

 

That's an attractive price. I guess between now and the end of the year, the value of the M9 is going to fall less in absolute terms than the S2 so there is no reason to rush into anything. Personally, I'd wait until the dust settles after all the Photokina announcements are made before committing to changing a camera system.

[Scarlet]

Diglloyd was OK a few years back when he focused only on Mac testing. Now he's just another Ken Rockwell. I have also emailed asking for clarification on some of his pronouncements and conclusions and have received nothing but snappy and borderline rude replies.