skimmel Posted March 9, 2007 Share #1  Posted March 9, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm starting a new thread on this because I believe this is an important topic that was started in  http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/18233-new-firmware-1-092-thoughts-read.html  but that thread has so many other issues being discussed. So, thought we should discuss this from a new thread.  See also:  http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/17689-firmware-v-1-91-m8-available-19.html#post190486  The question at hand is the extra shutter sound with the new 1.092 firmware and whether (how much) that reflects an extra shutter lag above and beyond 1.09. There have been a lot of estimates of how much of an extra lag, if at all, there is. I realize that it may not be much, but one of the great appeals to me of M cameras is the very short shutter lag. Whether it really makes a difference, I don't know, but it gives me greater confidence when I'm shooting candids and I believe, based on several years of shooting both an M7 and a fast Canon DSLR that I get more "right moment" shots with the M7.  Does anyone have a way to measure actual shutter lag and compare 1.09 to 1.092? Or, can we ask Leica (i.e., at PMA) about this? Other ideas?   *Note: the purpose of this thread is to try to get some objective data. I am not trying to be negative or find something to complain about, I simply want to see if we can get the facts.*   Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 9, 2007 Share #2 Â Posted March 9, 2007 First of all, we need to define shutter lag. Â I define it as the delay between pressing the shutter release at the release point and the shutter opening to expose the sensor. IMHO, it is NOT the delay to the start of mechanical goings-on and therefore audible noise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted March 9, 2007 Share #3 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Would anyone care to discuss how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, instead? If there's a difference, it's of no practical significance. In my opinion, this thread is a waste of bandwidth. Â Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 9, 2007 Share #4 Â Posted March 9, 2007 I agree. There's no shutter lag on the M8 in my experience. None whatsoever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimmel Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share #5  Posted March 9, 2007 First of all, we need to define shutter lag. I define it as the delay between pressing the shutter release at the release point and the shutter opening to expose the sensor. IMHO, it is NOT the delay to the start of mechanical goings-on and therefore audible noise.  I agree and that's where I believe there is confusion here. I know there are ways to measure shutter lag (Imaging Resources does it quite well I believe). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted March 9, 2007 Share #6 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Well, one must adjust to the lag when taking pictures. For those of use for whom dancers are waiting in the air, we need to know -- intuitively -- how much before the critical moment to push the shutter. Â Note: shotgun mode does not do the trick. There is a moment when the dancer (for example, others shoot different action subjects) is at the apogee of the arc. I figure that's somewhere around 1/100 sec. At 2 shots per second, you get 1/2 sec or 1/4 sec at best -- not close enough. Â If a firmware upgrade causes the timing of the image capture to change compared to the shutter actuation time, then there's a problem. Â I'm not feeling this yet, but I haven't got any dancers waiting in the air at this time. Â I agree with Mark that changes in the way the shutter works or sounds are not the issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted March 9, 2007 Share #7 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have not experience any difference in lag times between the different firmwares. I agree there is an extra click at the beginning which Leica has explained, and my understanding of that was that it goes to reliablity, and was part of their unspecified internal changes to enhance stability. All that is fine with me. Â Where there is a difference is in how my whole perception of the M experience goes, between my M6 and M8-the winding function makes it different, less definite of when the image was captured. I am sure I will adjust to this. I had to make a similar adjustment after getting the M6 back from service once and the shutter had been tightened, and so was making a more definite thunk than before. But eventually I stopped noticing. With the winder, I am still hazy as to what actually was the exposure part. If Leica were to enable a function where keeping the finger on the release in Single frame mode held the winding until release, I believe the experience would be more M6-7 like. But maybe it is a moot point overall. I am just as "on top of it" as my meager skills permit, after 7 years of rangefinders. Â There is no doubt that this camera has it's own personality as Erwin Puts calls it, the addition of the auto wind really does change the experience from before. Where there is a definite benefit to me however, being left-eyed, I always had to take the camera down to wind, and if you want to talk about "shutter lag" I think that is more meaningful. Now I can keep the camera to my eye and be on the focusing in "real time" as it were, and overall, my "lag" is reduced. I find myself more engaged, not less. Â Pixel-peeping/angels on the head of a pin in my opinion is not where my interest lies. End to end experience is what counts to me, and if I look at all the factors, while I am not happy in some areas, the total is overwhelmingly positive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEP Posted March 9, 2007 Share #8 Â Posted March 9, 2007 I have shutter lag on my M8 quite frequently. I am not really happy with it either, because it's so inconsistant. This shot may be instant, the next one (only a few seconds later) has unexplained shutter lag. This can't be a sleep issue, because there is not enough time between shots, so it has to be something else. It's also not buffer full, because it could happen on the first shot, it could be the second shot. I rarely shoot long bursts on the M8. Â So, define shutter lag? Hmmmm... I have a feeling it's between 0.5 and 1 second. That's not normal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted March 9, 2007 Share #9 Â Posted March 9, 2007 We're talking maybe hundreds of a second. If a photographer here is really bothered by 5/100th. of a second instead of 2/100th. of a second, raise your hand. You have a great future in shooting hummingbirds only when their wings are up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sps Posted March 9, 2007 Share #10 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Dave, Â I have NOTHING like you are describing. I push, it clunks. You might need to contact service. Â Savvas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthury Posted March 9, 2007 Share #11  Posted March 9, 2007 Why does the small change (actually, it's a really small change in shutter sound) bother you so much? I consider these trivial matters.  >You have a great future in shooting hummingbirds only when their wings are up.  Let's not get too far off ... it's not possible to stop the wings of hummers at 1/100 sec  This one was shot at around 1/8000sec ... and the wings are still not completely stopped.  Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/18285-shutter-lag-and-1092/?do=findComment&comment=195241'>More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted March 9, 2007 Share #12 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Well, hummingburds! No wonder it's so easy to get the dancers in the air! They're up there for a comparatively long time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted March 9, 2007 Share #13 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Arthur, Â Nice shot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted March 9, 2007 Share #14  Posted March 9, 2007 Why does the small change (actually, it's a really small change in shutter sound) bother you so much? I consider these trivial matters. >You have a great future in shooting hummingbirds only when their wings are up.  Let's not get too far off ... it's not possible to stop the wings of hummers at 1/100 sec  This one was shot at around 1/8000sec ... and the wings are still not completely stopped.  [ATTACH]28893[/ATTACH]  That's exactly my point, Arthur  And great shot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 9, 2007 Share #15 Â Posted March 9, 2007 So, define shutter lag? Hmmmm... I have a feeling it's between 0.5 and 1 second. That's not normal. Â Something's wrong then. The button press to shutter open seems to be a constant that isn't affected at all by the circumstances. You want to talk about shutter lag, I can't even count how many times I lost a shot on my Canon gear because the damn thing couldn't focus or meter in time. (I realize that's partly my fault, BTW.) Â Are people really experiencing a lag between button press and shutter release? Mine feels so fast I can hardly believe it isn't releasing before I press the button sometimes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted March 9, 2007 Share #16 Â Posted March 9, 2007 From the time you see soemthing and think I want to shoot this and your finger presses the button 200-250msec (a 1/4 sec) has passed. The only way you can catch action that happens faster is to anticipate the action and shoot before tha action actually is seen. In such a case, a few ms might make a difference but only if you didn't allow for it. In other words anytime you are taking a shot before something visually happens you are estimating the right time to press the button and mentaly allowing for the time to press and the shutter to operate. With experience, you get better and better at this estimating provided the time between push and shutter opening is not too long. What is too long is a question that can only be answered on an individual basis up to a point where no matter the individual it is too long. If I had to guess, I would think that anything under 25msec would not effect your ability to anticipate and catch the moment and would be within the range you could adjust to. I don't think the pre-release adds more than 25msec if that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 9, 2007 Share #17 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Yeah, but Dave is talking about 0.5 to 1.0 second! That's like back to the old Kodak 2MP P&S days. (Try shooting an F1 race with that kind of lag. I've done it and you have to shoot by the sound of the car coming around the bend.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 9, 2007 Share #18 Â Posted March 9, 2007 I can't say I personally noticed a difference in shutter lag between my M6 and M8. In fact before this thread it hadn't even crossed my mind as being a potential issue. I'm sure there _is_ a difference in the order of milliseconds, but I haven't noticed it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEP Posted March 9, 2007 Share #19 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Something's wrong then. The button press to shutter open seems to be a constant that isn't affected at all by the circumstances. You want to talk about shutter lag, I can't even count how many times I lost a shot on my Canon gear because the damn thing couldn't focus or meter in time. (I realize that's partly my fault, BTW.)Â Are people really experiencing a lag between button press and shutter release? Mine feels so fast I can hardly believe it isn't releasing before I press the button sometimes. Â I would say that on 95/100 shots it's fine. It's responsive. On the other 5 (and it could be less than 5) there is a very noticable lag. Â The other thing that worries me is why some people say their M8 needs the shutter pressing half way for it to wake up after power on (mine does) yet others don't. There have been times when even the half shutter press - even several times - has not brought it to life, and I have to turn off and back on again. Worrying. I am seriously considering a second body just in case I have to send this one to solms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 9, 2007 Share #20 Â Posted March 9, 2007 David, just checked mine and it comes on straight away, no need to press the shutter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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