Guest sirvine Posted March 8, 2007 Share #1 Â Posted March 8, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I know the RAID conversations can be painful, so let me cut to the chase: I'm looking for an external RAID 5 solution (1TB+) for my PowerMac G5. I don't care about transfer speed because I work from copies stored on the internal drives. This would be a backup array only. I don't need the $1000+ dollar Gbit Ethernet NAS because it's not a video or audio workstation--strictly photography. Â Also, I want it to be quiet. I don't know how many drive enclosures I've bought and then given away because of the cheap fans in them. I hate noisy electronics and right now my MacBook is the loudest thing at my desk. Â Anyone found an enclosure/controller that might work? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 8, 2007 Posted March 8, 2007 Hi Guest sirvine, Take a look here Quiet RAID 5 for Mac?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jfgilbert Posted March 8, 2007 Share #2 Â Posted March 8, 2007 If you are using your array for backup only, you can use the RAID 1 (mirroring) capability of OS/X and not bother with an additional RAID controller. I use two mirrored external FW drives and it works fine. I agree that some enclosures are noisy, but, going with FW drives gives you a lot more options than NAS. Also, I have mine set up to power off quickly when not in use, so they really only make any noise during the backup operation itself. The drawbacks are that it is slower and you are limited to the size of the disk, but they are now available and reasonably priced up to 750G. If you can wait a couple of months I would recommend waiting for Leopard and see if you prefer to use Time Machine (or whatever it is called). At that point you may want to rethink your backup strategy and get exernal drives that allow you to make full use of it. Hope that helps. Jacques Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 8, 2007 Share #3 Â Posted March 8, 2007 Jacques, Â I chose RAID 5 because I think it leaves more space on the drives and the idea of automatically rebuilding drives is attractive, but your comment has me thinking that mirroring is acceptable even despite the loss of capacity. I wonder if mirroring also has the advantage that the drives are definitely salvageable if the controller breaks down (not sure if this is a problem for RAID 5). Â Generally, I'm not impressed by the NAS products available, and I have even worse experience with crummy HD enclosures. On the other hand, the premium one pays for external HDs already in an enclosure is annoying. Too bad Apple doesn't make a high quality, quiet enclosure for the PowerMac and MacPro line. I would buy it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted March 8, 2007 Share #4 Â Posted March 8, 2007 Sol: Â If you use one of the network arrays, you can always put it in another room or in a closet so you don't hear the unit while it is running. Your only limit is a power outlet near the array and how long of an ethernet cable you have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Maio Posted March 8, 2007 Share #5 Â Posted March 8, 2007 Sol:Â If you use one of the network arrays, you can always put it in another room or in a closet so you don't hear the unit while it is running. Your only limit is a power outlet near the array and how long of an ethernet cable you have. Â I use an older G4 with dual 750Gb drives in a Raid 1 configuration as a network drive (with a gigabit switch hub) It just sits in standby until I want to back up. Works great for me. Â I decided to use the dual 1.5 GHz G4 because I already owned it and the price for it used is ridiculously low and - (this is key for me) - I can always employ it as a back-up computer if my main Quad G5 goes down as it did last summer. I also plan to get a Raid 5 host card for it when I eventually need more space. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 8, 2007 Share #6 Â Posted March 8, 2007 ...you can always put it in another room or in a closet... Â I live in Manhattan! Seriously, though, I'm getting the impression that no reputable companies make enclosures optimized for quiet instead of speed. I'm thinking about buying storage on a remote, managed server instead. That ought to be plenty quiet, at least. Let the hardware be someone else's problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 8, 2007 Share #7 Â Posted March 8, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Never mind...remote storage is hardly affordable. It's really silly that there isn't a cost-effective 1TB+ online storage service. Even with transfer limits (i.e., no for hosting popular websites) it would be better than buying a noisy NAS and managing the clunky hardware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted March 8, 2007 Share #8 Â Posted March 8, 2007 I live in Manhattan! . Â Open your window and you will never be able to hear the sounds coming from your storage. Â I looked into the Raid storage solutions a while backl and by the time you populate them with drives, they are very expensive. Â I just use mirroring to a NAS and also a desktop drive. The mirroring on the NAS is set to do it once a day. If the drive is not busry it shuts down and the fan only comes on when it is working hard. Â The destop drive I mirror to is usually turned off and I just turn it on to start the mirror after uploading a shoot to the desktop. Â Here is what I use for the NAS. Â Nexstar LX Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted March 8, 2007 Share #9  Posted March 8, 2007 I know the RAID conversations can be painful, so let me cut to the chase: I'm looking for an external RAID 5 solution (1TB+) for my PowerMac G5. I don't care about transfer speed because I work from copies stored on the internal drives. This would be a backup array only. I don't need the $1000+ dollar Gbit Ethernet NAS because it's not a video or audio workstation--strictly photography. Also, I want it to be quiet. I don't know how many drive enclosures I've bought and then given away because of the cheap fans in them. I hate noisy electronics and right now my MacBook is the loudest thing at my desk.  Anyone found an enclosure/controller that might work?  You might want to check out the Buffalo Terrastation line. These get pretty decent reviews and the pricing is attractive. It might also work within a home office environment too.  Buffalo Technology - Products - TeraStation  Personally, I use the AMCC 3Ware Sidecar Raid solution with 4x 750GB drives in it. This works fantastically with my Quad G5 and is true hardware Raid 5. Unfortunately, it does suffer from a noisey set of fans that attempt to keep the unit running!  I would steer clear of the Lacie large drives - I used to use the 500GB enclosures configured as Raid 1 backup pairs using either Apple's Raid configuration or SoftRaid and whilst it was ok, the drives weren't reliable long term and it's easy to mess up any externally attacted storage solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJL Posted March 9, 2007 Share #10 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Thought to add a bit to this conversation, as I run several RAID 5 arrays, plus a host of other assorted external and internal drives. There is a lot of variation in the quality and performance of some of the external systems with respect to power supply, fans, easy access, etc. I like the ReadyNAS systems by Infrant Technologies. They run their own RAID controllers and software plus memory inside their boxes. They are also fairly quiet compared to others. I have mine set up on a gigabit network so my G5, PowerBook and MacBook Pro call all access it at very high speeds. They update their software regularly and things like fan speeds are controlled by temp requirements. Â I also use HighPoint Technolgies' RocketRAID and the X4 external box. This is a SATA speed unit that requires an intenal RAID controller card in the G5. It is blazingly fast by comparison. So far, it has had the internal power unit fail. They replaced the entire X4 box that now has an external power brick. It stays cooler and should it fail, replacing the power brick is a lot easier. The downside is that it makes an awful lot of noise from the fans. No fan controller or temp sensor....just one speed...loud. Hands down, it is a better unit for performance, but not for noise and heat. Â The mention of using RAID 1 or 0 from the Mac OSX was made. While this is very cheap and quite reliable, it is not the way to go when using external boxes, such as Firewire. (I have several of these also, from LaCie and Other World Computing). If you are going to use as software RAID, get yourself SoftRAID instead of using Mac OSX. The OSX version of soft raid requires you to break the RAID array if you move the unit to anothe computer (easily done with the external FW or USB2 boxes), whereas SoftRAID does not break the array. This makes some difference with respect to preserving your data, even on mirrored RAID. If the drives are forced to be dependent as in striped RAID and mirrored RAID using OSX, you will lose your data if one drive fails. This is worth checking out before you commit to any devices. Lately, I have gone to using two dual drive boxes, for redundant storage. one drive in each box is backed up to another drive in the other box, rather than to the second drive in the same box. I am using Super Duper as the back-up utility rather than any software RAID. This allows redundant copies that can be separated if needed, like taking on to offsite storage. Â I agree with the OP that RAID 5 is the best set of compromises for fastest speed and recoverable redundancy within the RAID array itself. The only caveat is picking the right kind of external box. ReadyNAS seems the best of the NAS units by far, and mine has been running constantly for several years now. The other SATA type RAID 5 units usually require an internal controller card and must be dedicated to one computer. However, others sharing it on a fast (gigabit) network will think that it is connected to whatever machine you are using. Â Sorry for the long ramble, but I just went through all of this with several colleagues, plus doing some reconfiguration on my 12+TB system. Â LJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 9, 2007 Share #11 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Well I found a nice bargain on an Infrant ReadyNAS NV+. Oddly enough, the Amazon reviews for that item were a wealth of information. Anyway, thanks guys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayh Posted March 9, 2007 Share #12 Â Posted March 9, 2007 These guys are very knowledgeable and helpful. And they have nice ready-to-go systems: Â http://www.macgurus.com/productpages/sata/3waresidecar.php Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoff Posted March 9, 2007 Share #13  Posted March 9, 2007 Also, I want it to be quiet.  Quiet RAID 5 setup? Not really. I have a special rack cabinet for my Xserve RAID which deadens the noise considerably. However, this solution is overkill for most needs unless one is doing ongoing high volume professional work.  I understand the merits of RAID 5, and that’s what I use, but RAID 1 or 3 might serve your needs just as well. Especially given your cost range.  Therefore, I would suggest you look at some of the products from G-Technology. High quality components and best in industry warranty and support. What’s the advantage of cutting corners if the intention is to backup and protect your work in the first place.  http://www.g-technology.com/   Geoff  myspace.com/geoffotos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Campbell Posted March 9, 2007 Share #14 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Has anyone tried the Mac RAID? Should be very fast with optical cable connection. Issues other than price? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 9, 2007 Share #15 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Thanks, Geoff. That G-Safe stuff seems way expensive for what it is. 750GB RAID 1 for $1300? I could buy two Seagate drives at $300 for a mirrored terabyte! For those prices, they should make house calls. Â It's sort of disheartening to see how fly-by-night the whole storage industry is. The quality of non-enterprise DAS and NAS seems pretty bad, if you ask me, and the prices are nonsense. When you can buy cheap drives, why do you have to pay $600+ for a relatively simple enclosure? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbican Posted March 9, 2007 Share #16 Â Posted March 9, 2007 Well I found a nice bargain on an Infrant ReadyNAS NV+. Oddly enough, the Amazon reviews for that item were a wealth of information. Anyway, thanks guys. Â I use a ReadyNAS NV with my Mac Pro, primarily as the 'Vault' for Aperture. It is great but the speed only hits about 25-30 MB/s. Mine is noisyish, but not disturbingly. They now have a very quiet version (need to be within a foot or two to hear) but this may still be an 'add-on' fan and screwdriver job rather than integrated. Infrant.com's forums are excellent and the first place to look. I'd definitely recommend an NV if budget allows. Make sure you get it configured in X-Raid rather than raid-5. X-RAID is Infrants version of Raid-5 which allows drives to be added on the fly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJL Posted March 9, 2007 Share #17 Â Posted March 9, 2007 When you can buy cheap drives, why do you have to pay $600+ for a relatively simple enclosure? Â This has been a sticking poiint for a lot of folks. Some external enclosures are much better than others and for some, you are paying for a RAID controller device, multi-unit power source, fans, thermo devices, on-board memory, etc., etc. An interesting comparison is to try to assemble one yourself from available parts. Anything that holds 4 HDs or so seems to wind up costing about $500-600 just for the enclosure. You add in assembly, proper configuraiton and testing, and you quiclkly see that the prices on the less expensive units are not high margin devices for the manufacturers. Yes, they are buying tens of thousands of parts at lower costs. Not tyring to defend them or their pricing, as I too would love to have a quiet, reliable, fast, RAID 5 enclosure for $200, but there is no such beast. The HDs used to be the high cost point, but not so much anymore. Like a lot of things, you get what you pay for. The Apple RAID units are pretty incredible with redundant power, controllers, fans, etc., all built in, but the prices are quite high, especially for the HD sleds they sell. Like a lot of things, the more of these that get built and put into service, the lower the prices will go due to the volume, just like digicams and DSLRs. Â I hesitate to recommend anything to anybody, as there will be numerous arguments on price, quality, performance, needs, etc. However, there are some units that are really well made with better components (if that matters) and better features. I think the stuff by WiebeTech is great, but they are too proud of what they build (read high price). The Buffalo Terrastations work well for some, but my experience with them is that they are too cheap and shoddily made. (Just an opinion, so go easy on the flames ) The ReadyNAS stuff seems to deliver the best bang for the buck, as they say. If you get into serious storage, and the stuff is mission critical, you have to start thinking about enterpirse level units that are more failsafe, and for that you are going to pay a lot more. A colleague of mine hates spending anything, so he buys the cheapest high capacity HDs he can find and stores them as bare drives, using only a connector to power and load them. So far, he has had only one drive failure. Pick your stuff on what your needs are. Â LJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 9, 2007 Share #18 Â Posted March 9, 2007 I've been tempted to do the bare drive thing myself, esp. after the frustration of having enclosure after enclosure fail on me. LJ, your recommendations are appreciated (although I understand why you hesitate to endorse anything outright). Honestly, I'd buy the Apple RAID if I had a place to put it. Somehow I think the bathroom is not the place to store something like this...ah well. I'll peruse the Infrant forums when I get a moment, as that seems to be the most practical option that is consistently referred to as "quiet". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 13, 2007 Share #19 Â Posted March 13, 2007 ReadyNAS NV+ 1.6TB 1GB memory here I come! (Actually, it's coming to me from Newegg.) I'll let you know what I think. Again, much gratitude for these thoughtful answers. I just did a quick calculation and I think I'll have almost 3TB at my desk for personal use. I remember when 3GB seemed like a pipe dream. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 16, 2007 Share #20 Â Posted March 16, 2007 Follow up: The ReadyNAS arrived yesterday. It's pretty easy to set up, so within thirty minutes or so I had 1.1TB online. This is a very powerful device. I'm actually quite surprised by its capabilities, which go way beyond what I think I will need for backup. I'm sure at some point I'll be ripping DVDs and streaming video off it, so it's nice to know it's up to the task. Â Anyway, it pretty much meets my requirements from my original post. It's a solid device--well built. It is in fact quiet. The fan is noticable, but as other already point out, it rarely comes on except during long reads/writes. It does make some writing noise, but that doesn't bother me. I actually think the noise of the HDD's writing is louder than the fan. Â So far I've dropped about 20GBs onto it, and it's fairly quick, at least by my standards. I have it direct attached to my G5 via gigabit ethernet. Â Seems like a keeper... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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