andybarton Posted February 18, 2012 Share #21 Â Posted February 18, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm with Steve on that one. Â I would never describe anything as Mint unless it was basically new in box. Nor would I expect anyone else to. Â IMHO, the best rating that anything that's been used (not just played with) could attract would be Exc++ or at a push, Mint-. Â I'm pretty sure I described my M7 I sold recently as Exc++. That was to all intents and purposes unmarked and definitely in perfect working order, in box, with papers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 Hi andybarton, Take a look here Experience with Nicholas Camera, London?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted February 18, 2012 Share #22  Posted February 18, 2012 Not in my experience. Point is there is no formal grading system. I certainly wouldn't expect anything not described as mint or near mint to be anything other than well worn  My experience has been totally different, maybe you're used to using dealers who overrate the condition of the kit they sell. To suggest that the condition goes from Mint, to nearly mint, to 'rough dog' is a bit daft IMHO. By the time it gets to 'Exc' you must be expecting something that's been on the 'will it blend' programme.  For what it's worth I'd expect an Exc++ lens or camera to be in excellent condition, with some minor cosmetic damage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 18, 2012 Share #23 Â Posted February 18, 2012 I would never describe anything as Mint unless it was basically new in box. Nor would I expect anyone else to. Â Â Exactly. It it's been out of the box and used it's no longer mint. eBay vendors are the worst for over stating the condition of equipment - and 'minty' should only apply to things that taste of mint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 18, 2012 Share #24  Posted February 18, 2012 Red Dot is about as good as it gets. I've never had anything but exceptional service from them. We all have off days, remember, and we all have to deal with jerks from time to time. Regards,  Bill  What a strange thing to say. Firstly it reads like you are implying that Im the jerk and secondly, I personally speak to ANY client or prospective client in a friendly and warm manner even if I'm having an off day. It's very easy really. But these are the service values that are becoming harder and harder to find. If they are jerks, then the story may be different but personally I would still find it easy to politely decline to enter into conversation. In this instance it wasn't the case I merely had a few questions to ask before spending a considerably large amount of money on something.  I will give red dot the benefit of the doubt judging by the responses here, which i really do respect, but in this case I'm glad I found somewhere which treats me as nicely as they do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander †Posted February 18, 2012 Share #25  Posted February 18, 2012 Ffordes has a grading system, clearly stated on their website and the SH stuff I have purchased from them fits with their grading system. They check their gear. Richard Caplan, great, on the phone and in the shop and good stuff to.  Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander †Posted February 18, 2012 Share #26  Posted February 18, 2012 Exactly. It it's been out of the box and used it's no longer mint. eBay vendors are the worst for over stating the condition of equipment - and 'minty' should only apply to things that taste of mint.   I dont think mint means new it means as new, visually.  Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 18, 2012 Share #27 Â Posted February 18, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I ignore eBay descriptions, to be honest. I judge by the photos and feedback. I stand by what I said - exc++ is not something I would have high expectations of if I was buying from the pope. Caveat emptor, as always. When sell in on eBay, or anywhere else, btw I avoid the mint/mint minus/exc/vg "classifictions' precisely because optimists read one thing and pessimists the other. Â Regards, Â Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 18, 2012 Share #28 Â Posted February 18, 2012 Well, if you ever buy an Exc++ thing from me, you will be pleasantly surprised. Â Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 18, 2012 Share #29  Posted February 18, 2012 What a strange thing to say. Firstly it reads like you are implying that Im the jerk..  I wasn't responding to you, Paul, but to the comment made by Pedaes immediately above my own. Calm down  Regards,  Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 18, 2012 Share #30  Posted February 18, 2012 I wasn't responding to you, Paul, but to the comment made by Pedaes immediately above my own  So you were calling Pedaes a jerk? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 18, 2012 Share #31 Â Posted February 18, 2012 Oh for goodness sake Steve! Pedaes reported what he *heard*. Are you *trying* to pick a fight? What's wrong with you?! If I said the sky was blue you would disagree. It's getting tedious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 18, 2012 Share #32  Posted February 18, 2012 If I said the sky was blue you would disagree  Looking out of the window it's sort of black at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 18, 2012 Share #33  Posted February 18, 2012 Ffordes has a grading system...  You can see it here.  Ffordes Photographic  E++ = Slight signs of use  Here's the page where Red Dot describe their grading...  http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/privacy.php  E++ = 90-95% of original condition - Lens Glass very clean - cosmetically may show slight wear and/or signs of use  Which seems broadly in line with what Andy and myself were saying above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted February 18, 2012 Share #34 Â Posted February 18, 2012 .....Sigh... I still lament the closing of Photo Design Studio when Frank Foster retired. That was the kind of customer service I'd go back to again and again... I second that lament. He was a highly knowledgeable and extremely helpful dealer who I first met when he was a guest speaker at a Leica Fellowship meeting in Tiverton. Having no Leica dealer within range of my home I consulted Frank, who was instrumental in helping me start life with a digital M. He knew what he was selling and was objective with his advice, but he eventually grew frustrated with the treatment his small provincial Leica store received from the then dealer unfriendly Leica CEO. That was the time when many small dealers got a raw deal and he couldn't secure a guarantee for the supply of the new S2 system. I think that was the last straw for him. Â Incidentally, Photo Design was initially just an outlet for the controlled disposal of his extensive used personal Leica stock. The dealership grew from that small beginning because customers revelled in his honest and enthusiastic dealings. I often wonder if he lurks this forum. If so, let us know that you are alive and well, Frank! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brill64 Posted February 19, 2012 Share #35 Â Posted February 19, 2012 i think he's referring to me as being "the jerk". Actually, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have mentioned this online in such a public way. I don't mean to slander anyone's good name, it was my own personal frustration. When I found the rangefinder problem out of the box, I had it fixed immediately by leica as I was about to travel & at the time, it seemed too much trouble to return the camera back to the uk. I didn't spot the sensor problem (& neither did the service centre) - one side of the image lighter than the other exactly down the center of every image - until after I had returned and later downloaded and went through images. I didn't look too closely initially because I too trust the good reputation of red dot and I generally believe that once the camera's initial teething problems are ironed out, it should be fine from then on. I've honestly been too busy with work and travel since to do anything about it so the problem sat unresolved and festered. It may indeed be too late but I will take it up privately with the vendor. In the meantime I will send it into leica for repair as I'm away again in two weeks. Again, I apologise to red dot and forum members for my public outburst. I don't know what i was thinking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted February 19, 2012 Share #36 Â Posted February 19, 2012 I second that lament. He was a highly knowledgeable and extremely helpful dealer who I first met when he was a guest speaker at a Leica Fellowship meeting in Tiverton. Having no Leica dealer within range of my home I consulted Frank, who was instrumental in helping me start life with a digital M. He knew what he was selling and was objective with his advice, but he eventually grew frustrated with the treatment his small provincial Leica store received from the then dealer unfriendly Leica CEO. That was the time when many small dealers got a raw deal and he couldn't secure a guarantee for the supply of the new S2 system. I think that was the last straw for him. Â Incidentally, Photo Design was initially just an outlet for the controlled disposal of his extensive used personal Leica stock. The dealership grew from that small beginning because customers revelled in his honest and enthusiastic dealings. I often wonder if he lurks this forum. If so, let us know that you are alive and well, Frank! Â Hear hear. Couldn't agree more. (These sentiments merit more than just my appended "thanks".) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker Posted February 19, 2012 Share #37 Â Posted February 19, 2012 It's clear that the majority of people here have had favourable experiences with Red Dot. I have only spoken to them on the phone on two occasions when I have been in London and was looking to buy a lens. I found the person I spoke to on the phone at Red Dot abrupt and unhelpful. As a result I bought a lens from Richard Caplan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayewing Posted February 19, 2012 Share #38 Â Posted February 19, 2012 i think he's referring to me as being "the jerk". Actually, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have mentioned this online in such a public way. I don't mean to slander anyone's good name, it was my own personal frustration. When I found the rangefinder problem out of the box, I had it fixed immediately by leica as I was about to travel & at the time, it seemed too much trouble to return the camera back to the uk. I didn't spot the sensor problem (& neither did the service centre) - one side of the image lighter than the other exactly down the center of every image - until after I had returned and later downloaded and went through images. I didn't look too closely initially because I too trust the good reputation of red dot and I generally believe that once the camera's initial teething problems are ironed out, it should be fine from then on. I've honestly been too busy with work and travel since to do anything about it so the problem sat unresolved and festered. It may indeed be too late but I will take it up privately with the vendor. In the meantime I will send it into leica for repair as I'm away again in two weeks. Again, I apologise to red dot and forum members for my public outburst. I don't know what i was thinking. Â Â I have only once bought a second hand item from Red Dot and it came with a six month warranty. If there was a warranty you may still get some help from Red Dot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiralx Posted February 19, 2012 Share #39 Â Posted February 19, 2012 Exactly. It it's been out of the box and used it's no longer mint. Â Why? It's possible to use a camera and replace it in its box looking exactly the same as when it was taken out, isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 19, 2012 Share #40 Â Posted February 19, 2012 Why? It's possible to use a camera and replace it in its box looking exactly the same as when it was taken out, isn't it? Â I'm probably being overly picky, but if somethings been used it's no longer in exactly the same condition as when it left the factory. Just my odd logic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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