australex Posted February 13, 2012 Share #121 Posted February 13, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) In what way is speed / accuracy / IQ a gimmick? You know what IS a gimmick - a useless baseplate that takes up space and adds weight that was only there originally for film rigidity. Maybe a sapphire protected screen when gorilla glass would do a better job or the thousands of limited editions that sell for 30k. It speaks volumes about a core userbase when a moderator equates gimmicks with professional needs. I know that these days Leica makes its money from wealthy enthusiasts instead of pros, and marketing towards these people makes perfect sense. I just wish they could strike a balance somewhere. At the end of the day, I'm just looking for a compact full frame system with excellent lenses, no unnecessary modes/buttons (believe it or not) and Leica so far offers the closest option. By all means tell me what I don't "get". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 13, 2012 Posted February 13, 2012 Hi australex, Take a look here M10 at Photokina [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hoppyman Posted February 13, 2012 Share #122 Posted February 13, 2012 Welcome to the forum australex, That's quite a first impression you've chosen to put out there Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
australex Posted February 13, 2012 Share #123 Posted February 13, 2012 Thanks for the welcome. I knew what I was getting into, but I enjoy debate. I find that most people on other side of this argument have a tendency to fall back on the "he just wants a cheaper Leica" idea. An M9 is expensive and I can afford it. I just wish it was a better camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted February 13, 2012 Share #124 Posted February 13, 2012 So you base your strong views on other peoples' feedback rather than your own experience of M9 ownership? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesia Posted February 13, 2012 Share #125 Posted February 13, 2012 The market is full of different cameras, with different characteristics and performance. If ya wanna spend a few grand, you can fullfill nearly all wishes you have, except "the" Leica you wish to be somewhat it was never supposed to be. Whats the prob about? You also would not try to get a CLS 218/219, if you wanna have n four wheel driven ralleycar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
australex Posted February 13, 2012 Share #126 Posted February 13, 2012 My father owns one (he's a pro), I have borrowed it for months at a time. I would buy one if it was good enough. I own an M3 and a D700 and shoot for pleasure. So you base your strong views on other peoples' feedback rather than your own experience of M9 ownership? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
australex Posted February 13, 2012 Share #127 Posted February 13, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) The market is full of different cameras, with different characteristics and performance. If ya wanna spend a few grand, you can fullfill nearly all wishes you have, except "the" Leica you wish to be somewhat it was never supposed to be. Whats the prob about? You also would not try to get a CLS 218/219, if you wanna have n four wheel driven ralleycar. I travel a lot, for months at a time. Hauling a D700 + 4 lenses around is tiresome. Leica systems are small and less likely to draw attention / theft than a big fancy looking DSLR. I also enjoy the lack of scenes/modes/buttons. Those are what I would call gimmicks. I will not give up full frame, and thus have no options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesia Posted February 13, 2012 Share #128 Posted February 13, 2012 I decided to own just one lense. Sold the last years allmost everything, just keept a wide angel. I don't change lenses; at most only the body (to n analog/ZI if neccessary). Anyway, for a long backpackermideasttrip I would not choose any digital. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
australex Posted February 13, 2012 Share #129 Posted February 13, 2012 I travel for 6 months or more quite often. Film is not feasible for trips over 3 months or so, you need 50+ rolls of film and when every gram counts it just doesn't work out. Id probably take 21/50/90 or 28/50/90. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesia Posted February 13, 2012 Share #130 Posted February 13, 2012 film is not feasible for trips over 3 months ...may be for a few people... for other people it isn't feasible to watch out every eight hours for a charging point. or so, you need 50+ rolls of film and when every gram counts it just doesn't work out. ... 50+? Damn, how did we survived yesteryear... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
australex Posted February 13, 2012 Share #131 Posted February 13, 2012 I found I could get 700-800 DNGs out of the M9's battery. Obviously no one is going to leave the camera on the entire time and drain it every 8 hours. I don't know if you have done any "real" travelling lately (and I'm not saying you haven't) but it's easy to find a power point every couple of days in most places I've been including rural China + Siberia. Finding a way to collect more film is MUCH harder. Anyway, what works for you works for you and if thats film while travelling well thats great. It doesn't work for me and neither does an M9. I'm not saying it can't take great photos because we all know it can and does, but it could be so much better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sp12 Posted February 13, 2012 Share #132 Posted February 13, 2012 In what way is speed / accuracy / IQ a gimmick? YMaybe a sapphire protected screen when gorilla glass would do a better jobBy all means tell me what I don't "get". Actually, the fact the M9p uses sapphire instead of gorilla glass actually makes me incredibly frustrated. I'm paying extra (because it's a sapphire) for an optically and structurally inferior material, that's also significantly heavier. Cool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesia Posted February 13, 2012 Share #133 Posted February 13, 2012 no harm meant. Have fun... (50+ rolls and a m9 with about 900 DNG on one battery... anywhere schoolholidays?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
australex Posted February 14, 2012 Share #134 Posted February 14, 2012 Actually, the fact the M9p uses sapphire instead of gorilla glass actually makes me incredibly frustrated. I'm paying extra (because it's a sapphire) for an optically and structurally inferior material, that's also significantly heavier. Cool. Agreed - so stupid. It should be built as a tool not a status symbol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 14, 2012 Share #135 Posted February 14, 2012 australex, do you have some work on-line you can share? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 14, 2012 Share #136 Posted February 14, 2012 {Film when traveling] doesn't work for me and neither does an M9. I'm not saying it can't take great photos because we all know it can and does, but it could be so much better. Okay, fair enough. The M9 isn't perfect, and doesn't work for you. But then earlier, you said: I travel a lot, for months at a time. Hauling a D700 + 4 lenses around is tiresome. Leica systems are small and less likely to draw attention / theft than a big fancy looking DSLR. I also enjoy the lack of scenes/modes/buttons. Those are what I would call gimmicks. I will not give up full frame, and thus have no options. Well, you do. The M9. It may not be perfect for you (see your first post), but at least it is smaller and more discrete than a D700 and 4 lenses, is full frame, and doesn't have scenes/modes/buttons etc. I seem to recall that you also liked the image quality. So, are you just looking for disagreement? I get your point about the M9 not being perfect for you; but then it is perfect of others. I'm not really sure you can criticize others for their opinions ... As for travel, for over 8 years, I lugged an FM, 3 lenses (wide zoom, mid zoom and telephoto) with bags of film through SE Asia, trekking in Nepal, through Europe, Turkey, across the Sahara Desert and God knows where else. It was all carefully packed in a Tenba bag, with film stored in lead bags. I would have gone for an M9 in a heartbeat. But then, that's just me. I do miss Kodachrome 64, though I have to say. No way in the world I'd ever want a D700. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMB Posted February 15, 2012 Share #137 Posted February 15, 2012 Welcome to the forum - but I fear you don't "get it' I would advise you to buy one of the excellent fully gimmickized products that are offered by many manufacturers. It's too bad that these kind of comments allways come up if someone dares to questions something about the M9 (or M8 or whatever M). The M is a great system, but it does have weaknesses that are surprising and unneccesary given its price and that could be fixed without compromising the strength of the system, including the simplicity and the reduction to essential functions. I think Australex made some very valid points in say what he dislikes and what he likes. People may disagree and explain why. But accusing him of not "getting it" without without making any substantive comment on his points is killing any discussion in this forum. It's particular disappointing that this comes from a moderator who, as his many valuable contributions to this forum shows, could have addressed the substance of Australexes' points. Georg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 15, 2012 Share #138 Posted February 15, 2012 Georg there is a difference between expressing preferences and the language and tone of the first post by australex. In my view australex has intended to be provocative. Some of the points mentioned are personal opinion of course. Liveview and focus assist have been mentioned numerous times by some members. I don't think they belong in the next M personally but that's fine. Different views and preferences. Some of the other points are at least contentious. I disagree that the M9 has "terrible" sensor aliasing issues, bad dynamic range and horrible high ISO compared to a $500DSLR.. The design choice to not use an anti-aliasing filter was deliberate and the advantage accrued is surely well known. I 'll happily accept the tiny handful of my shots where moire is visible (maybe less than ten from ~25,000 with M8 and then M9 in my case). I've never measured nor compared dynamic range. I know that I should set my exposure thoughtfully as with any digital camera. I use 1000 ISO frequently with fine results. Good exposure decisions and developing make a large difference too. Along with fast prime lenses, I'm perfectly content with that. The camera is markedly better in that regard than the M8. some statements australex made are wrong or mis-worded "You know what IS a gimmick - a useless baseplate that takes up space and adds weight that was only there originally for film rigidity." Its base surface is maybe a a millimetre thick and the whole thing weighs a few grams. The camera obviously needs to be enclosed. Some argue for separate doors. That's personal preference and that's fine. I like it as is personally. There are actually advantages to being able to replace the base, in fact. "the thousands of limited editions that sell for 30k." That is just silly . It is irrelevant to what LCD cover material is used in any case. " It speaks volumes about a core userbase when a moderator equates gimmicks with professional needs." Which gimmicks have Jaap described as professional needs? "I found I could get 700-800 DNGs out of the M9's battery" I'm very surprised to read that. I have never seen anything like that number of frames on one battery charge with my M9 over several thousand trames. I change my battery after filling a 16GB card which is around 400 uncompressed DNG's. The indicated remaning charge is typically very low by that point. I don't run the batteries to completely flat though. Perhaps any other owners may like to comment on that?. Australex has said he has owns an M3, a D700 some Canon stuff I guess and he has borrowed an M9 for months at a time. Some examples illustrating some of things described as terrible would add weight? 30,000 plus customers out there have bought M9's so far. Clearly a lot of people think they do work pretty well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMB Posted February 15, 2012 Share #139 Posted February 15, 2012 Geoff, I don't want to beat a dead horse here (and I did not say that I completely agree with australex) but: 1) the difference between your post and Jaap's post is that you make substantive comments whereas Jaap did not. 2) autralex may have been a bit provicative but so what -- a bit of juice is not bad (and I don't care whether he has 20k posts or is new kid on the block). Kind of the emporer and his new cloth type of thing -- it can be quite refreshing, to have new people with a fresh look. 3) some of the statments by australex you cited were not in the orignal post but in subsequent posts--and yes, some of them are silly like the thousands of 30k collectors kits sold (and I also would like to have the battery that gets me 900 shots. I also do not want to debate the merits of everything he said. My point is simply that comments of the kind made by Jaap in the post I cited are not helpful. Happy shooting. Georg PS: BTW, I am one of the more or less happy 30,000. PPS; The reference to the 30,000 customers reminded me of something I read many years ago: "People should start eating shit. Billions fo flies can't be wrong" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 15, 2012 Share #140 Posted February 15, 2012 Georg obviously we see these posts quite differently but I'll leave that now. Rather than people perceptions, will you then also make some substantive comments on the points raised now then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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