M8 as a b&w shooter

[hammam]

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I've been shooting almost exclusively 35 mm b&w and some MF b&w in the last two years or so, processing it myself, then scanning the negs. My two DSLRs (Nikon) were kept for the studio, because I didn't care for carrying the big bodies and lenses for what was basically exclusively b&w shooting. Then, the M8 came into my life, just when I was wondering when they would come up with the digital equivalent of, say, a Nikon FM2 or a M6. Small, easy to carry and use, unobtrusive, and with great glass...I love the M8, and it's making me shoot color again. But, I'm still very partial to b&w, and I'm having a hard time assessing the pros and cons of shooting b&w with it. I'm talking straight b&w, not post-processed color.

 

Is there somebody here who shoots a lot of straight b&w with the M8? If so, do you like it as much as b&w film? Do you use some plug-ins to emulate b&w film? Do you use b&w filters on the lens the same way you did with film? Etc... I am in the process of evaluating the whole issue, but some guidelines would be very helpful. The corollary of these questions being: should I ditch my 35 mm film bodies (FM2n, M6) and not look back?

 

Thanks for your insight.

[ken_tanaka]

Hello Oliver. There's no argument that b&w film has distinctive visual character. There's also little argument that film is an increasingly costly and inconvenient photographic medium. For me film's generally confining characteristics, relative to digital imaging, has made my conversion to 95% digital a simple move.

 

Rather than allow my cameras to create compressed b&w jpg files in-camera I prefer to use the RAW file format (DNG with an M8, for example). This allows me to make the color -vs- b&w at a later time when I can study the final image more carefully. (Most of my own work is in color.) But it also offers a wide range of possibilities for making the conversion from color to b&w.

 

I've been using Adobe's Lightroom as my base imaging platform. As such, Lightroom offers some very potent, non-destructive tools for converting to b&w. Within Photoshop, the new (beta version) of Photoshop CS3 offers a dedicated b&w filter layer feature, also non-destructive. Of course you can still roll-your-own conversions with Photoshop's channel mixer or the dozen or so 3rd-party plug-in filters available. My previous favorite among these was The Imaging Factory's "Convert to B&W Pro". Its controls should feel somewhat familiar to wet darkroom veterans.

 

Have fun.

[stunsworth]

Hi Ken, it's an interesting question. First of all it has to be said that when you shoot 'native' b&w with the M8 there is still some processing of the colour image - it's just that the processing is being done by the camera and not you :-)

 

The downside of this of course is that you loose the benefits of having RAW files. The upside of course is that you have to spend less time sat in front of a screen.

 

I shoot RAW and use the Aliens Skin Exposure plug-in to convert to b&w. Like Ken I've tried a lot of different methods and plug-ins, but I prefer the Alien Skin One. Ken prefers a different plug-in, but that just people being people, we all prefer different plug-ins, the trick is finding the one that you like.

 

IMO opinion the M8 produces excellent b&w images, but they still look different to film. My advice would be to try the channel mixer technique - you should be able to find this easily enough using Google, and try some of the 3rd party Photoshop plug-ins - assuming you use Photoshop - and then settle for the one that you like the most.

[hammam]

Thanks guys,

 

I have been converting to b&w in PS for a long time, using many different methods, mainly the Channel Mixer or the Gradient, but I'm trying to spend less time processing and avoid the conversion step. Also, it may sound silly, but for some subsconcious reason (for lack of another term), if I know I'm shooting in color, I don't really «see» b&w in my mind. Am I the only one, BTW?

 

So, what I'm looking into is a program or plug-in which will allow me to emulate b&w films from straight from the camera jpeg b&w files.

[wattsy]

I'm still hopeful that Leica consider offering a B&W (non-Bayer) version of the M8.

[stunsworth]

Olivier - sorry for referring to you as Ken earlier, I'm getting old :-)

 

You could sort of do this with the Alien Skin plug-in as it emulates the grain and contrast of various b&w films. Of course what it won't be able to do in this situation is emulate the colour response of an individual b&w film. There's a 30 day trial at their website so it may be worthwhile trying it - if you don't like it then there's one crossed off the list.

 

The _big_ downside with Alien Skin is the price $199!!!

[robovet]

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Hi Ken,

 

I think shooting raw and then converting to black and white will give you much more control. I also like Alien skin exposure. Another great set of B&W conversions come with Kevin Kubota's Photoshop actions. They are popular with wedding photographers. You can download alien skin as a demo. I'm not sure you can Demo Kubota's and he has several. I think his artistic action one set is where you should start. Another conversion description that I like can be found here by scrolling to the botom of this site http://www.designbyfire.com/000100.html. Once the conversion is done using layer masks to selectively dodge and burn or adjust contrast will give the best results in my book.

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[j. borger]

I use my M8 for B&W 98% of the time .... without IR filters.

I use a complete B&W workflow .... so my LCD on the camera shows B&W images.

I import the images to Capture one and use specific B&W profiles from JFI colorlabs for straight rawconversions .. so ialso only see them in B&W in Capture One......

 

check these profiles out: JFI Color Labs

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[Skooter]

Photoshop CS 3 (Beta version) has a new, wonderful, black and white conversion layer. One can easily simulate B&W contrast filters by opening a black and white layer and dragging directly on portions of the image. Alternatively, one can change the mix of the color channels making up the B&W image by moving the color sliders and observing the results.

 

There are a number of approaches to B&W conversion (see The Russell Brown Show) that you may want to consider. I find the new conversion layer built into CS 3 to be effective and easy to use.

[norm_snyder]

Ken--

I have been an almost exclusively B&W shooter with Leicas for years, and have found the M8 to do everything I need it to. While it has not completely replaced film, for a project involving performance shots of the local jazz scene--itself having taken on a life of its own--it performs with my lenses up to a standard allowing low light, A2 prints. For conversions of raw files, I have found RawDeveloper is working well, and will do batch processing of raw files. Channel mixer in PS is my second choice. The JPEGS straight from the camera work almost as well as the DNG files, but I think DNG has allowed an extra small margin of quality and control. Attached are a couple of small JPEG files of shots from a recent concert. ISO 640 and 1250. The latter look a lot like pushed HP5 at 1600. I wouldn't hesitate about the M8, and am getting no banding since the camera [mine was from early Nov. '06--the first batch in the states] was updated at Solms, and no reliability problems.

 

 

--Norm

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[mwalker649]

outstanding shots

[norm_snyder]

Olivier--

 

Sorry--this thread originated with you. I would add, that Fred Miranda's actions for PS have been very helpful. This includes his resizing and noise reduction actions [the latter not really needed for black and white from the M8] and also his BW conversion. They have the additional attribute of being quite inexpensive.

 

One more attachment from ISO 1250 file.

 

--Norm

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[norm_snyder]

Thank you, Mike.

 

Regards,

Norm

[Bill Sievers]

Hi

 

I have been shooting primarily BW with my M8. Here is a link to photos I have posted on Flickr. I shoot M6 and M7 in film as well. The M8 comes pretty damn close to recreating a filmy atmosphere in my opinion. However, I am not prepared to give it up.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/captainvideo/tags/leicam8/

 

I have also settled on Lightroom which I find to be very user friendly, particularly the ability to store presets conveniently. Most of the BW shots on my stream were processed in Lightroom.

 

Bill

[woodyspedden]

I use my M8 for B&W 98% of the time .... without IR filters.

I use a complete B&W workflow .... so my LCD on the camera shows B&W images.

I import the images to Capture one and use specific B&W profiles from JFI colorlabs for straight rawconversions .. so ialso only see them in B&W in Capture One......

 

check these profiles out: JFI Color Labs

I also use JFI profiles for my black and white work and have never found better. The range of choices to control the tonality is superb. And the price is only $16 for the entire profile set!

 

Woody

[hammam]

I use my M8 for B&W 98% of the time .... without IR filters.

I use a complete B&W workflow .... so my LCD on the camera shows B&W images.

I import the images to Capture one and use specific B&W profiles from JFI colorlabs for straight rawconversions .. so ialso only see them in B&W in Capture One......

 

check these profiles out: JFI Color Labs

 

Sorry, I don't get this. If you shoot in-camera b&w, then your files are Jpeg, not DNG, right? You can't set the saturation to b&w while in DNG mode. So, how can you convert to b&w in C1 using JFI profiles? Why do you even have to? Is there something I'm missing here?

[dhoelscher]

Sorry, I don't get this. If you shoot in-camera b&w, then your files are Jpeg, not DNG, right? You can't set the saturation to b&w while in DNG mode. So, how can you convert to b&w in C1 using JFI profiles? Why do you even have to? I

 

I think that the workflow that most of these people use is:

 

1) set the camera to JPEG + DNG (raw)

2) now set saturation to B&W

3) you'll get a black and white JPEG, yes, but you ALSO get a DNG that you can take to C1 or whatever and get fine control over the B&W conversion.

 

Having the B&W JPEG in camera mostly gives you the advantage of B&W previews on the back of the LCD to help you visualize your picture in B&W .. occasionally, I've found even that B&W in-camera JPEG to be worth printing too ...

 

Does this help?

[Guest stnami]

This confirms my belief that the m8 is the best b&W digital on the market...

The corollary of these questions being: should I ditch my 35 mm film bodies (FM2n, M6) and not look back?

... I would keep a film camera for the days in the future that you want to play away from mid field

 

ps great shots Norm

[j. borger]

Sorry, I don't get this. If you shoot in-camera b&w, then your files are Jpeg, not DNG, right? You can't set the saturation to b&w while in DNG mode. So, how can you convert to b&w in C1 using JFI profiles? Why do you even have to? Is there something I'm missing here?

I set the M8 to keep DNGs + Jpegs ..... yes you are right you need the jpegs to get the B&W lcd.

I use the Jpegs for quick editing .... after initial editing i go to Capture one to work the DNGs from the keepers.

The DNG's give me the possibility to use the B&W filters or filmtypes the profiles provide and al other advantages of rawfiles.

 

Hope this helps

 

J. Borger

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[lars_bergquist]

Some peripheral musings. Grain was always a problem with 35 film, but in the late 1950's some people began to see it as 'artistic'. Soon they were reveling in it, even to the extent of dunking their Tri-X in barely diluted Rodinal. Some of their prints looked as if they had been done on macadam. They did portraits of young actresses that way!

 

Luminance noise does not look exactly the same as film grain. Digital looks different than film because it IS different -- but I think that soon enough, there will be a 'digital aesthetic' just as there has been and is a 'film aesthetic'. We may in fact come to have two of them. So let us appreciate both the smooth medium format look of ISO 160, and the more '35 mm-ish' look of higher gain levels.

 

Basically, I have seen enough changes of medium -- from roll film to B&W 35 mm film, to Kodachrome, to digital -- to think that the thing is to be honest to our medium. The pictorialists in their time tried to make photographs look like etchings or mezzotint engravings or charcoal -- we shake our heads and find them misguided. People who try to make digital images look like french-fried Tri-X are no better, in my opinion.

 

The old man from the Age of the Bromoil Print