Guest stnami Posted July 31, 2006 Share #41 Posted July 31, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am glad you bought that up Bob .The most successfull digital images as I see them are those produced by 'colourists' and most of them are still using film as well as digital A incredibly well defined body of work by Luc Delahaye, but as so many others he relies on suffering to give the images that extra mile. That is why Tomas Munita's images are so important as he does not rely on the negative aspects of life as is Mann's genuine urge to reclaim honesty. Which in turn leads to "the good thing about digital is now everyone is conscious of how a photo can be completely faked" That is the real positive about digital as it has freed the photograph from its constraints and the viewer who now is a maker as well (due to access) more than ever accepts the changes and direction. Get out of jail free coupon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2006 Posted July 31, 2006 Hi Guest stnami, Take a look here imants and personal photography. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
smokysun Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share #42 Posted July 31, 2006 hi imants, i didn't know manita's work. here's a search page for those interested: Tomas Munita @ Metasearch.com lots of beautiful photos on his home site. and i agree he pictures human resilience rather than vulnerability. i guess those are two sides of people in stressful situations. as for color, those cultures still living in folk traditions have a simpler color-scheme with vivid contrasts and not a lot of confusion. in a sense, the art-work has been done by them. you merely need to capture it effectively. (the mission of phil douglis, who has lots of fine work on pbase, as well as other sites.) and what you said about digital manipulation reminds me of the theory that all human progress and delight comes from play. i have to admit there's a tremendous sense of play in many, many photo blogs. as you've implied, this opens things up. and who knows what will come? (and the only photo pics i keep on my wall are from doisneau calenders.) that said, i find a religious passion in delahaye (maybe others don't see it) which he seems to get through an intense form of self-abnegation. does that make sense? and for me it helps turns the negative into the positive. on the other hand, i wouldn't put his pics on the wall. images create an atmosphere for me and i'm careful about what i have around! thanks again, wayne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest menze_as Posted July 31, 2006 Share #43 Posted July 31, 2006 I'm not sure if I understood the discussion well - but what strike me very much are the photos by Walter Schels in the book he made together with Beate Lakotta "Noch mal leben vor dem Tod" (Once again living befory death). In a hospiz, he photographed seriously ill people - one photo some time before death, the second just after they have gone. She interviewed those people, and we get their stories of life as they felt it ... ISBN 3-421-05837-7 Other photographs I feel touched by? all those who are able to tell a story with their pictures. Who can put the story in front and take themselves back. Whose stories are quite usual stories, nothing put together, nothing special, just normal life. Whose portraits show the mind, spirit, psyche in the eyes, the face, the hands. Living - not posing. As living in Vienna, I emphasize Erich Lessing and Franz Hubmann - representative for many others ... Greetings, Astrid Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokysun Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share #44 Posted August 1, 2006 hi astrid, thank you for the very nice post. i couldn't find the first book but have ordered shels' portraits of animals and a fat one on lessing. i really appreciate finding out about new people. this discussion tends to be complicated and go in different directions. but it did occur to me much of the work we've mentioned does depend upon 'the exotic'. in other words, war, which disrupts everything and exposes human emotions in the extreme, and cultures which retain the color of folklore and fairytales. there's nothing wrong with this, but i like the paintings of bonnard and vuillard where the everyday - a person taking a bath or writing a letter, the corner of a room - is transformed into something beautiful. in this sense, it would be the ordinary people and things around us which you talk about. joseph saudek (the older saudek) would be an example of this in his pictures of prague. the writer christopher isherwood once said, "you can write about extraordinary things in an ordinary way, or ordinary things in an extraordinary way." either way, there can be a transformation into art. i am a great advocate of the imagination (and i love the hundertwasser work and the ethnic museum in vienna). to incorporate the imagination, to find the miracle in the everyday, is something i like to see. thanks again. you've understood perfectly. wayne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest menze_as Posted August 1, 2006 Share #45 Posted August 1, 2006 Hi Wayne, here two links to the book which photos were shown in several exhibitions. DHMD: NOCH MAL LEBEN DVA-Buch - Noch mal leben vor dem Tod Probably it is difficult to you to read it in German - but it is worth it. As to add to my post yesterday ... To me photography is artless (if not modified by photoshop etc. to an art piece). It is interpretation - corresponding to a music piece interpreted by the pianist or orchestra, while the "composer" of music is life in photography. The photographer shows a scene of life - the angle of his view, the arrangement of people or items, the very moment pressing the shutter, the choice of color or SW ... and of course the darkroom/photoshop processing: all this is his interpretation. But not art - to my opinion. Greetings, Astrid Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted August 1, 2006 Share #46 Posted August 1, 2006 "as for color, those cultures still living in folk traditions have a simpler color-scheme with vivid contrasts and not a lot of confusion. in a sense, the art-work has been done by them. you merely need to capture it effectively." I agree here as it is like fishing in a bucket with everything at your disposal. Then again a photo of a pile of rubbish? Is there any value in a image of a grubby kid posing their heart out? Pretty normal stuff?? But who wants it? As time passes the rubbish piles up and the kid cleans her face, there is no reason to document. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokysun Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share #47 Posted August 1, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) hi imants, your point is well-taken. and i love folk/ethnic color and art and i have a lot of it around and have traveled in those countries for that reason. on the other hand, the history of modern art full of grubby kids, starting with courbet. and photography has been a strange art in that abandoned warehouses and discolored walls have been a staple. (or beautiful models put in the midst of half-starved people and war zones). and beautiful pictures can be deceiving. (ethical confucius said, beauty is not enough.) for example, kathmandu. photo opportunities everywhere amidst the garbage. a ray of light illuminating a fantastic face, a bright garment. in the midst of feces and hovels. however, what's important for the artist, it seems to me, is the resonance of the subject matter inside him/her. some people like transforming lead into gold (irving penn's gigantic cigarette butts, for example). others would rather start with the gold and have it take wing. i like to be moved by people's vulnerability but for everyday viewing, i'd like to see them dancing in the street (doisneau again.) all i ask from a work is liberation and meditation. the will to go on. inspiration. hmm, come to think of it, that's a lot! wayne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokysun Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share #48 Posted August 1, 2006 hi astrid, the pictures very moving, especially the liveliness of life compared to the peacefullness (in these pictures) of death. unfortunately, my german very rusty. the artless art. that's the taoist/zen quest. every teacher says, your work must look effortless, no matter how much work you put into it. for some people that comes easier, especially if the inspiration right. for example, lewis carroll told the first version of alice in wonderland to two girls in a boat, floating on a stream. that he made up as he went. at home he refined it into the book we know, retaining the original impulse and flavor. there is something of improvisation and wildness in every work that touches us. if this interests you, i recommend: zen in the art of archery by herrigel. when to click the shutter and when to let the arrow fly seem to me the same thing. thanks again for your insights. wayne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted August 2, 2006 Share #49 Posted August 2, 2006 autochrome is pure noise! Wayne, that is a very valuable tip. A bit OT, but I do like alternative processes and autochrome amongst them. I like to try and duplicate them in post processing and all attempts at autochrome have not worked. Your comment gave me a tip on something new to try, using noise masks for each color and then compositing with the separate color channels. Hey, it beats potato starch. The autochrome look is something worth fooling around to find a way to recreate it. Maybe not so OT, considering Astrid's remark on making art in post proccessing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted August 2, 2006 Share #50 Posted August 2, 2006 Hi Astrid, I tend to agree with you on the art-less nature of photography. There is, of course, the art of the craft from which we can produce the pristine and precise image with the best tools, technique and medium, but the end product of that craft may just be a recording of a moment. Even the "taking the picture or making the picture" debates doesn't quite cross the line into the possibilities of adding the artist's personal dimension. Some of this might only be a known factor to those who did their own processing in the darkroom or those now that understand the flexibility of post processing. The attitudes of "I click the shutter, therefore, I make art" and "I see it, I click it, see my art" certainly miss the rest of the process involved in art. I am afraid that most of the time I am a visual recordist using still photography...:-) Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted August 2, 2006 Share #51 Posted August 2, 2006 Hi Imants, Munita is certainly not afraid of shadows and his images have a richness and depth as a result. There is nothing flat about his presentation processes. He lets me explore the shadows with my own imagination and that draws me in to the content. Going back to my comment about the propensity to "open the shadows", If someone would do that to Munita's images and present them as reality, I'd say they could keep that reality to themselves. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest menze_as Posted August 2, 2006 Share #52 Posted August 2, 2006 Hi Wayne, yes, I think you are right - it is just the effortlessness that lets you feel directly within the scene taken by the photograph. And therefore you are catching a bit of "soul", of inner life. That's what I like in portraits as well - this liveliness that shows the inner feelings behind, character, soul. And I think with you - it is important what's going on in the heart of the photographer at this moment. It is a difference what his own feelings are: looking for a great shot? making money out of his pictures? or just keeping himself back, and in a sort of meditation keeps his eyes and heart wide open to see or better: feel the "right moment"? Thanks for the book too. I know the title, but haven't read it yet. Will do it. Regards, Astrid PS I hope my thoughts come out clear enough - my English is not very well ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted August 2, 2006 Share #53 Posted August 2, 2006 Bob I am quite impressed with autochrome and pure noise, here is a remakable example of Lumière’s color photos from World War I and a long way from Munita. Channel noise should do the job. I'll give it a twirl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted August 2, 2006 Share #54 Posted August 2, 2006 Wayne "your work must look effortless" As a lover of process,sometimes this sits uneasy with me.........does once having a dog called buddha who accepted the dependant nature of reality count? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokysun Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share #55 Posted August 2, 2006 hi imants, i once had a dog named don juan (after carlos castenda's character) and a cat named moonlight, so i suppose buddha counts! and as someone who loves process, i do know the mystery people feel in front of michaelangelo's unfinished slaves, especially since he never wanted to display a wounded or disfigured body. (nor, probably, unfinished work.) and it's always fascinated me that people like watching set changes in theater. (and i've made set changers into part of the play a couple of times.) backstage movies. the artist at work. a new book out on man ray's studio. oddly, seeing all the gears and wheels doesn't dispell the mystery of the work, even if the man behind the curtain (wizard of oz) is revealed. hi astrid, this is a question that has always intrigued me: can a despicable person make great art? unfortunately, i've come to the conclusion the answer is yes. dostoyevsky doesn't seem to have been a nice guy, or william faulkner. the list goes on. and purity of soul doesn't guarantee the ability to make profound art. again, it's a question of that shadow side, incorporating the negative to get a complete picture of life. still, i would say that the art i go back to again and again is, for the most part, made by people i think i would like and find fun at lunch! hi bob, please keep us posted on your autochrome experiments. i haven't seen any successful attempts to duplicate it. and imants' picture terrific. i do like munita's pictures very much. and it is the unspoken mystery of the shadows that would make his pictures attractive to put on the wall. thanks much to all, wayne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted August 3, 2006 Share #56 Posted August 3, 2006 hi bob, please keep us posted on your autochrome experiments. i haven't seen any successful attempts to duplicate it. and imants' picture terrific. wayne The autochrome idea is officially to my "to do sometime" list right after "gum bromide" I have sort of come to the conclusion that to digitally fake the alternative processes, you have to actaually recreate each step in the original process, for example, in the gum print process, you build up the layers of color and densities, layer by layer. Each layer is a new decission based on your results to date. Tedious to be sure, but digital is drier and the safelight brighter... Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted August 3, 2006 Share #57 Posted August 3, 2006 http://www.zonezero.com/10/ponencias/green/green01.html An old site but for a theatre man it could be of interest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest menze_as Posted August 3, 2006 Share #58 Posted August 3, 2006 this is a question that has always intrigued me: can a despicable person make great art? unfortunately, i've come to the conclusion the answer is yes. dostoyevsky doesn't seem to have been a nice guy, or william faulkner. the list goes on. and purity of soul doesn't guarantee the ability to make profound art. oh yes, he can. Think of musicians like Wagner. Or Gesualdo who was a murderer (he killed the lover of his wife and their baby). I think you will find lots of examples where a person is despicable, but makes great art. That is because what we see of a person are his outer reactions. We do not see his psyche, we do not see how often he was hurt in his life to become so negative. But art - or, as I would prefer to say - creative actions carry out the soul. In those moments of total release while creating something the language is that of the inner realms. again, it's a question of that shadow side, incorporating the negative to get a complete picture of life. still, i would say that the art i go back to again and again is, for the most part, made by people i think i would like and find fun at lunch! I would say - it is not important how "artistic" a work is, and how nice or less nice a creative person is. Important to me is how much the work touches me. Shallow sketchy "art" doesn't touch me. But this is my personal way of feeling resonance ... Greetings, Astrid Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokysun Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share #59 Posted August 3, 2006 hi imants, fine site and article. we haven't really begun to come to terms with the digital age, but performance artists have been examining the effects of the media for a long time. and it makes me wonder if i shouldn't be doing staged photos, instead trying to transform reality, ie. photos into something else, which is fun to do on the computer but ultimately doesn't seem to interest very many people. (is this because now everyone can do digital manipulation, so it holds no mystery?) today we are driven by drama, particularly in the news. we want it everyday. disaster as entertainment, an old theme but still relevant. the main thing about art that works is that it shakes us up, either meditatively or dramatically. it re-circuits our responses, if only for a bit, and gives us a respite from our own circle of thoughts and perhaps a sense of new possibilities. even if the order it introduces is evanescent, it relieves us of the chaos this particularly modern world seems to advocate. and for the artist, the desire to make order and sense is what drives her/him, don't you think? hi astrid, you've certainly put your finger on the source of great art. and i believe a personal subject matter necessary, something that ingnites this bonfire of unconscous energies. edith piaf said she could only sing a particular kind of song. and i think the most profound work done by artists who've found their subject matter. an energy is released that goes beyond mere artististic skill. they have something they have to say. but it comes from a depths which can seem obscene/insane to many leading a calm, respectful life! personally, i am released by humor and imagination and a willingness to shatter taboos, though i always stop somehow this side of the gross. thanks for your insights. they are very welcome. my best, wayne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted August 5, 2006 Share #60 Posted August 5, 2006 "anyway, what interests me in this deluge of photographers is what separates the ordinary from the significant. david hockney said in a hundred years most of the photography we see as art will disappear. that what will survive is photography as history, subject and the strange style of former times what is interesting." That's pretty much as how advertising went here today gone tomorrow, except advertisers have come to terms with it and accept its transitory nature. Photographers are still trying to archive too much ( if not everything) in some faint hope of notoriety in the future( the great lottery). That's the beauty of digital there is no great urge to retain images, not too many film guys could live with that. I dice most of my negatives keeping only the ones that I may use in my artwork, no great loss. I have a friend who was a mad archiver and lost it all in the bushfires in 1998, though she misses some stuff since that time she got a new lease in life and her photography became more relevant to her artwork Not too sure about order and sense chaos and uncertainty are my preferred companions on this particular journey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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