andybarton Posted January 20, 2012 Share #121 Â Posted January 20, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm not sure that a big advertising promotion would make much difference to them. After all, if you use film, you will go and buy some. If you don't use film, you won't and never will. Â There were some adverts for Ektar when that resurfaced a couple of years ago, but doesn't seem to have done much good at stemming the inevitable decline. Maybe if they'd brought out a nicer film... Â I cannot believe that Kodak are stupid enough not to sell off the film division as a "going concern". Â Does "Chapter 11" require the company to bring in outside help in order to put the show back on the road? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Hi andybarton, Take a look here kodak bankruptcy. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
plasticman Posted January 20, 2012 Share #122  Posted January 20, 2012 True, sorry about that. So if revenue for film sales hadn't halved from 2010 to 2011 they'd expect to have lost about $500m in 2011 overall. I know I'm stating the obvious, but they didn't file for Chapter 11 because they are currently successful.  Oh well - I guess my point is being lost, but the number of people needed, and the overall size of the company would be negligible in a spun-off film division. Most of the film-making processes at Kodak are now automated (for better or worse), so the essential point is, how much more dynamic and profitable that exclusively film-based company would be?  You seem to be under the impression that film is Kodak's core business - but that simply isn't the case now. The great mass of the company is concentrated on other (loss-making) pursuits, for which the film division contributes a little to slightly offset the overall bleeding. On their own, those possible $50-100 million in profits could even be made to grow (the Pro film subdivision has had growing profits recently). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted January 20, 2012 Share #123 Â Posted January 20, 2012 I'm not sure that a big advertising promotion would make much difference to them. After all, if you use film, you will go and buy some. If you don't use film, you won't and never will. Â As someone who works in advertising, I find this an interesting perspective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 20, 2012 Share #124  Posted January 20, 2012 You seem to be under the impression that film is Kodak's core business - but that simply isn't the case now  I know it's no longer the core business, I never claimed that it was. No one doubts that currently the film division is making a profit. However it's only one division in a much larger corporation, and that corporation is making very big loses. If things go on as they are, the probability is that Kodak will have to file for bankruptcy and the film division will not be able to save them from that.  However if the division is isolated from the rest of the company - either by setting it up as a stand alone company, or selling it, then it probably has a future. The problem with that is that Kodak announced only a couple of weeks before applying for Chapter 11 protection that they were going to do the complete opposite of that and integrate film more closely with the loss making divisions. Given the time scales involved they must have known that they were going to apply for Chapter 11 when they made the decision to end film's existence as a separate division. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 20, 2012 Share #125  Posted January 20, 2012 I'm not sure that a big advertising promotion would make much difference to them. After all, if you use film, you will go and buy some. If you don't use film, you won't and never will  Yes, but they'd be trying to persuade you to buy Kodak instead of Fuji. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 20, 2012 Share #126 Â Posted January 20, 2012 IDoes "Chapter 11" require the company to bring in outside help in order to put the show back on the road? Â There's a Wikipedia article on Chapter 11. From memory any rescue plan has to be approved by the creditors. Could be wrong on that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted January 20, 2012 Share #127  Posted January 20, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) No one doubts that currently the film division is making a profit. However it's only one division in a much larger corporation, and that corporation is making very big loses.  However if the division is isolated from the rest of the company - either by setting it up as a stand alone company, or selling it, then it probably has a future.  Then it has a future, IMO. If it's not important for their future, the question will be asked how much a sale would bring with, or without, the real estate/equipment/brand name.  India, or China will find a way to reduce unit costs with £1 a day labour rates, no R&D, a growing local market, a big film industry and cinemas that don't have video projectors. Portra is saved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted January 20, 2012 Share #128 Â Posted January 20, 2012 From Kodak - "We have taken steps to sustain the business as it has declined, and we know that there are hundreds of passionate fans of film for the artistic and quality reasons they cite." Â Let's hope there are more than "hundreds." Â Some posts here suggest that Kodak's film division could be run much better than it currently is being run. I don't see how anyone here is in a position to know this. Does anyone here actually know what it takes to make all of these products, package and label them in many languages, and have sales and tech reps plus distribution channels in various industries all around the world to market and support the products? Â It isn't about selling Tri-X to a small group of photographers. They have to sell a huge amount of different types of film to make a relatively small profit. In the second qtr of 2011 they only made $2 M from about $400 M in sales. Â -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2nd qtr financial statment - Â Film, Photofinishing and Entertainment Group second-quarter sales were $396 million, a 14% decline from the year-ago quarter, driven by continuing industry-related volume declines. Second-quarter earnings from operations for the segment were $2 million, compared with earnings of $36 million in the year-ago period. This decrease in earnings was primarily driven by significantly increased raw material costs, particularly silver, and industry-related declines in volumes, partially offset by cost reductions and price actions across the segment. __________________________ Â The assumption by some on this forum is that there is a clear way to extract more profits from the Kodak film division in the future and Kodak somehow missed this. And we are to just assume that there is at least one company out there who sees how to run it better than Kodak currently runs it, and that company will buy it. Â Is there any basis for these assumptions? Considering the slim profits, I don't think the division would command much of a price should anyone be even remotely interested in taking such a big gamble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted January 20, 2012 Share #129 Â Posted January 20, 2012 Is there any basis for these assumptions? Considering the slim profits, I don't think the division would command much of a price should anyone be even remotely interested in taking such a big gamble. Â All assumptions are based on the fact that Kodak has raised the white flag, avoiding their creditors, protected by the Law. Â Maybe you're making the bigger assumption that Kodak will be able to continue in business and continue to be the best at what they do. For some, Chapter Eleven takes the future out of the failing business' hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 20, 2012 Share #130 Â Posted January 20, 2012 Alan, the only assumption I'm making personally is that the film division would be a going concern if it were a stand alone business, the figures seem to support this. Â However it _isn't_ a stand alone business, and Kodak are moving to integrate it more strongly with the other divisions. One of the reasons given for its halving of year on year film revenues was the elevated price of silver, given the economic situation I don't see that changing soon. Basically Kodak are stuffed - in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted January 20, 2012 Share #131  Posted January 20, 2012 All assumptions are based on the fact that Kodak has raised the white flag, avoiding their creditors, protected by the Law. Maybe you're making the bigger assumption that Kodak will be able to continue in business and continue to be the best at what they do. For some, Chapter Eleven takes the future out of the failing business' hands.  No I am not assuming that Kodak will stay in business and continue what they do. I simply have no idea and we need to see the re-organization plan to know what they will try to accomplish. But if one tries to separate out the film business, we don't really know how much overlap there is in the rest of the corporation that would have to be taken over by another company.  For instance the same branch of consumer sales reps and tech reps probably deal with companies as diverse as Best Buy, mom and pop camera stores, and B&H for a range of Kodak products - digital cameras, ink jet printers, digital picture frames, film, paper, chemicals and more. To have reps deal with a much smaller line of just film based products may not be as efficient. It isn't nearly as clean a division as something such as Kraft Foods and Phillip Morris tobacco products were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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