When I hear "IQ" I reach for my gun

[Guest Bernd Banken]

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Steve,

 

in December 06 I took this road after so many years of family and holiday shots in digital.

 

The M6 plus Ilford HP5 inID11 brought back the memories of grain and the special 'mood' in my pics.

The wet games in my bathroom delivers this heartbeat after opening the Jobo drum.

 

Next days the TRI-X and the FP will find their place in the fridge...

 

After some irritations with the M, this photograph kept me on the road with M and RF but

with FILM..

 

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/other/16159-derby-sport.html

 

Bernd

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[AlanJW]

I like using these small digicams for informal macro work, because they typically focus down to just a few centimeters, have TTL viewing, and the deep depth of field really works to their advantage at these macro ranges, so I think I really do get a look not readily possible with a bigger camera.

 

 

I completely agree. Some of my better flower shots are with small sensor cameras (now using DLux 3); I was able to obtain images that I found extremely difficult with my Canon 5D and 50mm macro (because of depth of field issues).

[jrc]

I think grain and blur and slightly misfocused shots give the illusion of movement on the part of the photographer, the kind of fragmented view of things you get when, say, you're running hard or breathing hard. So the grain and the actual damage to Robert Capa's surviving D-Day photos of bodies on the beaches looks to me very appropriate, as if the shooter himself were in danger and was moving fast; there's a sense of action.

 

A carefully composed, very clear image and well-focused gives an impression of stillness.

 

One of the striking things about Jim Nachtwey's photos is that they are usually quite sharp (autofocus) and he has a powerful sense of composition, so that sometimes even his action war photos seem almost as if they're on a stage; it feels like something that you couldn't actually see if you were there, because you'd be moving too fast. I thnk some of his shots would be better if they weren't quite so technically perfect.

 

JC

[Guest stnami]

... further away from the camera closer to 'The Dark Side', come hither little leicalings ............to the indecisive moment

...bye bye leica hello computer

[AlanG]

I shot photos on vacation with a small p&s. I love it.

 

I was in Venice on a foggy day. I don't think some of the images would have been better if shot with any camera. (Fog is a great equalizer.) So even very large prints look good in this situation.

 

I hate to say it but because these small p&s cameras work so well for me, I really don't think I need anything better for a lot of my personal and travel images. (Not jobs.) I just prefer a tiny camera that I can always have with me so that photography can be fun and almost effortless. (I already do enough that is difficult and not fun.)

 

Here are two images that I think are the best ones I shot that day.

 

http://goldsteinphoto.com/agpvenice1.jpg

http://goldsteinphoto.com/agpvenice2.jpg

 

And here is a little slide show with some more shots. (They are only posted at about 600 pixels wide, so don't scale the window too large or they'll fall apart.)

 

http://goldsteinphoto.com/agpvenice.swf

[ustein]

Nice venice shots. I love this place.

 

I find the discussion of this thread very interesting. The venice shots show how much more important the content is than purce pixel counting. I will check out the DLux-3 for review.

 

Uwe

[AlanG]

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Uwe,

 

I'm glad you like them. Here is another shot if you can indulge me. It is one of my favorites from this genre and is something I can get when I have a fast simple camera ready and am paying attention to my environment. To me, this is the essence of having fun with photography.

 

I will probably stop posting as these were not made with a Leica camera. Don't get me wrong, I think Leica makes very fine cameras. It is just that I don't really think the brand or model of camera matters much for these kinds of images.

 

http://goldsteinphoto.com/gun_boy.jpg

[Guest malland]

Alan:

 

Interesting grain in a color picture! For people who think that color photos should have no, or minimal grain, have a look at Magnum photographer Harry Gruyaert's series at:

 

http://www.magnumad.com/detected.php?page=&pass=

 

It'll take a few seconds for the page to load.Under photographers, click on Harry Gruyaert. Click on Portfolio and you'll be able to see his "Rivages" series. They're beautiful grainy seascape/horizon images.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

[sean_reid]

I think that the key idea is understanding that there are no rules about how a picture must look. There are conventions in various "subcultures" of photographers (amateur and professional) and those conventions are often mistaken for ideals. Decades of camera and lens marketing (that equate a certain kind of technical excellence with photographic value) haven't helped things.

 

In my writing about photography, I keep trying to turn over old logs and show the slugs in those ways of thinking. I hope that people who read the site take a look at the essays as well as the reviews. Almost all of them try to bring emphasis back to the picture as the thing ("in which we'll catch the conscience of the king").

 

I think its almost impossible for someone to have a good knowledge of the history of visual art (in various mediums) and still believe that all pictures should look the same certain way (like high-definition television, for example), that all lenses should draw a certain way, etc. I'm glad to see people using the term "small sensor camera" rather than "point and shoot" because the former emphasizes what the camera really is and the latter is just a cliched marketing category. I'm glad to see some people move away from the idea of a "consumer" camera, whatever the heck that is.

 

An alligator can't be a horse but photographers who love the small-sensor aesthetic (sketchy with deep DOF) could, if they wish, emulate it to a degree by working with the M8 at ISO 1250 and 2500 and using small lens openings. The diffraction created by the latter setting will soften the picture just a bit which may be desirable for some.

 

Use the M8 at ISO 2500 and F/16 outdoors....why not? But, then, if one already has a small sensor camera that's doing the job well, why emulate?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[AlanG]

For people who think that color photos should have no, or minimal grain, have a look at Magnum photographer Harry Gruyaert's series at:

 

Magnum Photos :: Magnum Ad

 

 

Yes I did like his work. I feel grain is one of many effects we can employ to communicate our vision. I once did a project where I re-photographed some of my slides through a microscope to zoom in on distant subjects and achieve very rough and unusual grain.

 

One great thing about photography is that there really are no rules and we are free to challenge ourselves to creatively use all tools and techniques available.

 

And Sean, I get your point about using the term "small format sensor." P&s is often used in a condescending way but it is such a handy term for both the camera and my attitude that I think it is descriptive. And I never felt that I was somehow less of a photographer no matter what camera I was using. I find all types of cameras are pretty easy to use. But I'm open to suggestions for a new term that will give us lowly p&s shooters more respect.

[Guest stnami]

Use the M8 at ISO 2500 and F/16 outdoors....why not? But, then, if one already has a small sensor camera that's doing the job well, why emulate?

... Why not use the m8 to its max ablilities..... 50% of the work that I do is on the computer, that's where the IQ changes can occur. I do admit some results are better on a P&S, but a m8 and a little GRD would be a powerfull combination for B&W work. Now how do I finish this kitchen with some bucks left over...........

 

 

Harry Gruyaert's work would be great as autochrome, grain's a bit too pronounced in the lighter scenes

 

 

P&s is often used in a condescending way

... so be it its about results, so to the show ponies a tough luck

[ustein]

Alan,

 

this is very good work. As said this is a very valuable discussion.

 

Uwe

[Guest malland]

... Why not use the m8 to its max ablilities..... 50% of the work that I do is on the computer, that's where the IQ changes can occur. I do admit some results are better on a P&S, but a m8 and a little GRD would be a powerfull combination for B&W work.

Imants, I guess you mean shooting with the M8 and then adding grain on the computer, with Alien Skin Exposure, for example. That is certainly possible, but, for me, starting with a file that has the grainless quality and the gradation of medium-format film and then adjusting to get to the "35mm aesthetic" (or the small-sensor aesthetic) if you will, while perfectly possible, is a less direct way of working than by starting with a grainy small-sensor file, on which I still do a lot of post-processing. In my way of thinking, in such cases I can get the results I'm looking for by starting with a small sensor file which gives me a feeling with more immediacy of where I want to go. These small sensor cameras really are not toys.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

[AlanG]

I think the small sensor cameras have a role in "serious" photography. Alex Majoli is pretty well known for this. It is old news, but maybe some aren't familiar with him:

 

Rob Galbraith DPI: Alex Majoli points and shoots

 

I really don't think there is much new in photography as a medium, but there certainly are new and easier ways to approach it. Considering that a lot of images never make it past the computer monitor, small format sensor cameras can have a pretty big role if they suit the photographer.

[Guest stnami]

Imants, I guess you mean shooting with the M8 and then adding grain on the computer, with Alien Skin Exposure, for example

... sure that's one way (by no means the best), along with reducing the intervals in the dynamic range, playing with the white balace, indvidual channels, sharpening, dpi etc

I am in agreement with you Mitch about the p&s mob of cameras, anyway even if they are toys they are toys that I like to play with.

As for direct way of working I guess it is important to some, I prefer to lie and cheat my way through an image.......to the indecisive moment. Once downloaded the changes that I make to the file are immediate and direct, kikin' and screamin' no need to slave over a computer.

Of late I using a pentax digital at 1600iso with really cheap and nasty old lenes and exposing to the left, all destined for colour work, revisiting my autochrome ideas again.....

..... some great new stuff on your site Mitch

Alex Majoli has produced some great images with the olies (C-5050,7.sand 8.s) this started a avalanche high prices almong the pseudo journalist fraternity.... a pity as the P&S started to become a bit of a cliche......

[Guest stnami]

lie and cheat my way through an image.......to the indecisive moment

.

[Guest malland]

Imants, I like your indecisive moment above. Or maybe we should call it the "anti-exquisite" moment.

 

—Mitch

Flickr: Photos from Mitch Alland

[Guest stnami]

... yea it was one of those times when neither the photographer nor the subject was fully committed

[Mark Antony]

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the smooth digital look. I know it's in vogue especially portrait shoots that have a 'airbrushed perfection' some liken to plastic

Everyone has to find a look they feel suits the subject, I mean portraits and street photos need different approaches.

I like the look of film grain and the 'feel' I can create with it.

http://www.pbase.com/mark_antony/image/73727187.jpg

 

http://www.pbase.com/mark_antony/image/73725659.jpg

 

I know some will say 'I can do that with digi xxx' but IMHO somethings missing (that is a personal opinion).

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Guest stnami]

I know some will say 'I can do that with digi xxx' but IMHO somethings missing (that is a personal opinion).

... Cleopatra perhaps