Is V1.10 late? Is it vaporware?

[sdai]

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Is this correct that Leica's software testing is dependent on Guy and Sean? Can anyone confirm this??

 

edit: Or rather, with all due respect can anyone confirm this.

 

I think Sean has mentioned somewhere that he'll be testing the new firmware ... I may be right, or I may be wrong. Any post and thread could disappear if needed.

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[plasticman]

I think Sean has mentioned somewhere that he'll be testing the new firmware ... I may be right, or I may be wrong. Any post and thread could disappear if needed.

 

What on earth does this mean? Is it a threat? I'm sorry i'm quite confused by this entire thread.

 

I've also developed software in the past, and the idea that a commercial company does not need to meet some kind of time schedule when fixing bugs is frankly ridiculous.

 

What's more, with all due respect to the expertise of Guy and Sean (i'm a subscriber to Sean's site), i'd be amazed and, in all honesty, disappointed if Leica's software engineers were dependent on their testing, (which isn't to say that a number of photographers around the world will probably be given a 'preview' version to run through its paces).

[george +]

We mast to hope is not same people what was test it M8 and does not found IR

 

So seem like you now somethings about 1,10. Mabe you allow to tell if is only for cyan ora also fix up some of so many prablem what lately makes to stop work it so many M8?

 

Kedves Blasko, ezt még én sem értem. Csak azt, hogy bár önnek nincs M8-sa de mégis ugy gondolja, hogy azt kritizálni kell.

 

Miért?

 

Nomeg, hogy mit ajánlok? Vegyen egy M8-sat. Nomeg egy pár angol órát.

[barjohn]

Plasticman,

 

Your statement about commercial software development is accurate in my experience. Every company I have worked for where we developed software had to meet schedules and commitments for delivery. To name a few: Control Data, Corp, Harris Computer Systems Division, Modular Computer Corp (MODCOMP), TranSec Systems, inc, and barjohn consulting. I'm not suggesting we never slipped or missed a target but it doesn't mean we didn't have one. The one target I have NEVER seen in a company is to not release anything until it was perfect.

[Jamie Roberts]

This is just for fun...

 

I love automatic translation. I'll hide the guilty auto "Hungarian - English" translator, but this is what it gave back to George's tete-a-tete post to Blasko:

 

"Dear Blasko , this yet nor do I I understand. Only that , that while önnek there is not sa but yet ugy think about , that that reviews have to. why Nomeg , that mit suggested? Medley one sat. Nomeg a pair of English órát"

 

By comparison, Blasko's posts are models of English erudition LOL!!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

What on earth does this mean? Is it a threat? I'm sorry i'm quite confused by this entire thread.

 

I've also developed software in the past, and the idea that a commercial company does not need to meet some kind of time schedule when fixing bugs is frankly ridiculous.

 

What's more, with all due respect to the expertise of Guy and Sean (i'm a subscriber to Sean's site), i'd be amazed and, in all honesty, disappointed if Leica's software engineers were dependent on their testing, (which isn't to say that a number of photographers around the world will probably be given a 'preview' version to run through its paces).

 

 

Man let's just get those dig's in and put the knife in a turn it a little. Jesus have a little faith in some peoples abilities and Im sure there are many beta testers out there.

 

mani you may not like me and that is fine but I have been shooting digital for at least the last 15 years an i think I know a thing or two about firmware and the digital process, maybe more than I can say about your experience with it. So stop trying to bait me it is pretty silly to even try.

 

I'm going to have some more coffee:D and get to work

[sean_reid]

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I think Sean has mentioned somewhere that he'll be testing the new firmware ... I may be right, or I may be wrong. Any post and thread could disappear if needed.

 

What I've written is that when 1.10 is released, I will be testing it for RR, including augmenting some lens tests (cyan drift info.) as appropriate.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped stuff about readme files}

I want to see WB and AWB at least as good as I can get in a $500 camera (if all these $200-$500 cameras can do it why can't Leica?). I want JPGs from the camera that require minimal or no post processing for those times I want to just go shoot and post on the Internet for my friends without hours at the computer first

 

John, and I really mean this with all due respect, I think you bought the wrong camera. Not only do point and shoots NOT get WB or AWB correct in any critical way, you probably aren't nearly as critical of them as you would be of an investment that begins at 10X the investment. Under most point and shoot conditions (sunny days, etc..), the M8 still delivers a pefect JPEG (IR is the exception here).

 

But I honestly think you should be using something like a Canon 400D with Leica R glass instead (there are great, focus confirming adapters out there).

 

I think you'd be many yards happier, and for point and shoot posting to the internet (where the M8 is both overkill and the wrong tool--like using a scalpel to carve a Thanksgiving turkey) you could actually get a cheap zoom!

 

No-one would ever tell the difference online, and you'd save a veritable fortune to spend on Leica R glass (which can be had at fire-sale prices) and on Canon's newer L glass too.

 

I don't want to have to worry when I by a brand name SD card that it won't work with my camera and will cause untold problems to appear

 

I don't think this has been confirmed at all. I use 8 expensive (IOW, not "deal" and therefore not likely counterfeit) Sandisk Extreme 3 2GB cards in both my DMR and M8. Never seen a card related issue, over more than 10K shots (with both cameras). BTW--always format the card in the camera once you've dumped it. If you do this on the computer, in my experience, you are asking for trouble. This is even worse with Windows XP computers, where delayed write failures to removable media is a well-known bug.

 

I want lens data in the EXIF and would prefer (for non coded lenses to be able to enter it manually and I want f stop either guesstimated or manually entered recorded because I won't remember what I did the same day much less several days later.

 

EXIF errors in writing info on the coded lenses is an extremely minor bug. As for aperture recording, again, you bought the wrong camera. While it would be nice, I think you shoudl be able to at least estimate the aperture with a rangefinder. If not, I suspect having it recorded won't mean much to you.

 

I promise I won't vilify them if they communicate honestly in the format I presented earlier. :)

 

John--Neither Canon nor Leica nor Nikon admit "future bug work" they're going to do, for obvious support reasons. Only Leica has ever done this, and I applaud them for it.

 

I've said it before, but when my Canon 1ds2--more than twice the price of the M8 for the body only, BTW--had a bug that actually dropped and scrambled frames with CF cards (and caused a recall to Lexar cards!)--they didn't admit it.

 

Canon also didn't tell anyone they were working on it, and it was about 8 months after the release (and horrible speculation) that they actually fixed this major, major flaw.

 

I know a ton of pros that dropped the 1ds2 in the interim, and there were a ton of us who stayed. That camera has now been around for a long time.

 

So let's not hold Leica to a standard that no other company even approaches, OK please?

 

At least Leica quickly and meaningfully acted with to inform and help their customers!

 

As for 1.10, they're not even late yet, for heaven's sake!! I would also bet dollars to doughnuts, as they say up here, that it is being tested as we speak, and not just by folks like Guy and Sean. From a software perspective, I assume they're approaching their "gold code" for 1.10.

 

Finally, all camera manufacturers (including Leica) provide a readme file with exactly this: how to install it, and what bugs are fixed. Only Leica has ever said what they're working on, and if they miss stuff, they actually say they will fix it!

[barjohn]

Is this correct that Leica's software testing is dependent on Guy and Sean? Can anyone confirm this??

 

edit: Or rather, with all due respect can anyone confirm this.

 

Consider it absolutely positively confirmed that Guy and Sean are their only beta testers. It's called "Who do you trust?"

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Just Kidding!

[plasticman]

Man let's just get those dig's in and put the knife in a turn it a little. Jesus have a little faith in some peoples abilities and Im sure there are many beta testers out there.

mani you may not like me and that is fine but I have been shooting digital for at least the last 15 years an i think I know a thing or two about firmware and the digital process, maybe more than I can say about your experience with it. So stop trying to bait me it is pretty silly to even try.

I'm going to have some more coffee:D and get to work

 

I would also take some blood-pressure pills.

 

You do seem to take everything personally Guy - but my position would be this: i won't be putting my 5-6 thousand bucks into a camera if that was the level of software testing by Leica. Is this what you're claiming?

[sean_reid]

Is this correct that Leica's software testing is dependent on Guy and Sean? Can anyone confirm this??

 

edit: Or rather, with all due respect can anyone confirm this.

 

Hi Mani,

 

Neither myself nor Guy have said that we're testing any firmware. So, no, no one can confirm your statement. It's an unconfirmed Internet rumor and I'm not sure where it started.

 

I can say that I am confident that 1.10 will not be vapourware and that Leica is not ignoring the important task of developing firmware revisions for the M8.

 

Are you still loving the D-lux 2?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

First no one said we are and if we are we can't tell you anyway . Also there maybe many beta testers even on this forum and all over the world, all i can say it is not vaporware and test are in the works.

 

Mani you made it personal not me. once again your trying to insult people with your writing weather you realize it or not but my experinece and Seans experience in digital is well documented and if Leica chose us as testers and it is not good enough for you than too bad and it's your issue if you want to put out 5k not this forums. Don't buy it no one is twisting your arm are they

 

Btw my blood pressure is way below normal and i smoke too, If you want to be a doctor than maybe you prescribe something for yourself, I don't need your advice on my health thank you very much . End of discussion

[george +]

Jamie, you hit it on the head. Blasko probably used the same translator from Hungarian to English as you - but in reverse. With about the same result. LOL:) :)

[Jamie Roberts]

I don't recall anyone here, including me who started this thread, complaining about v1.10 being vaporware. {snipped}

 

Danni,

 

Honestly, now, you asked the question and therefore complained by implication in the title of the post, no? "Is it vaporware" sort of begs the question, doesn't it? What rhetorical answer would you expect?!

 

Asking whether it's late is one thing; asking if it doesn't exist or is an outright lie (which is what "vaporware" implies) is tanamount to an accusation, regardless of your personal financial investment.

[jonoslack]

What on earth does this mean? Is it a threat? I'm sorry i'm quite confused by this entire thread.

 

I've also developed software in the past, and the idea that a commercial company does not need to meet some kind of time schedule when fixing bugs is frankly ridiculous.

 

What's more, with all due respect to the expertise of Guy and Sean (i'm a subscriber to Sean's site), i'd be amazed and, in all honesty, disappointed if Leica's software engineers were dependent on their testing, (which isn't to say that a number of photographers around the world will probably be given a 'preview' version to run through its paces).

 

This was my fault mani - it occurred to me from their posts that they MIGHT be testing it (neither of them has said so any time I've seen - they would be under an NDA anyway).

 

My guess was simply based on the fact that they appear to KNOW that the firmware exists, but then, I KNOW as well (after discussions with Solms which aren't under NDA).

 

I simply made a joke - I'm sure that Leica isn't waiting for them - and I'm sure that lots of people are testing the firmware (with or without Guy or Sean).

 

I'd be very sorry if you got anything out of my silly joke (other than perhaps a smile)

[dannirr]

Danni,

 

Honestly, now, you asked the question and therefore complained by implication in the title of the post, no? "Is it vaporware" sort of begs the question, doesn't it? What rhetorical answer would you expect?!

 

Asking whether it's late is one thing; asking if it doesn't exist or is an outright lie (which is what "vaporware" implies) is tanamount to an accusation, regardless of your personal financial investment.

 

Jamie,

 

Respectfully, I disagree.

There are no implications in my question. If I am guilty of anything, it is that the title is provocative enough to get my questions answered, and they have been. To go back to the beginning of this thread, I noted a statement by Leica that it would be available in Dec 2006 - and that was all I was trying to show that there was mention of a date prior to Feb 07.

 

I am satisfied by Sean's and Guy's posts - they have a track record that I trust.

 

One problem of forums such as these is that often an intent is read into a message that is not there. I would suggest that we all refrain from doing that, and simply take the written word at face value.

 

Danni

[barjohn]

Good grief Jamie, don't take my want lists so literally. I don't think I purchased the wrong camera or I would have sold it a long time ago (when I could have gotten a premium price for it). Having versatitlity has never been a bad thing to my mind. Just becasue Canon and Nikon don't do something that they should do has no bearing on what Leica could or should do. Why not be better than your competitors? I want to encourage them to be better, I have always liked Leica and its products going back to the 60's. Yes the M8 is overkill for the web, so what? Can't I use it for both serious art work photography and fun snap shooting too? While I have other cameras I don't go to parties or fun events carrying a ton of equipment or cameras because my wife will kill me. She thinks it is geeky and since I don't do it for a living I can understand where she is coming from. If I found a P&S that met my quality requirements I might consider taking one instead but I like the M8's low light and ability to shoot without flash unobtrusiveness. Maybe when the Sigma Dp-1 arrives, if ever, I will select it as the go to fun camera. I am concerned that it won't have the low light capability I want, especially with an f4 lens. I realize you are a pro but I seriously doubt if I posted pictures without EXIF data that you could tell me the f stop used in each shot. In any case I can't so what's wrong with wanting a little memory help?

 

My points are:

1. Leica can do better and we should encourage them to do so.

2. There are features at least some of us want or improvements to existing features

3. Communications are important and can help Leica distinguish itself from their competitors

4. Leica should have a technical/engineer monitor and respond to issues raised on this forum, for example, look at all the posts on back focusing. An engineer from Leica could help users identify whether the issue is a misaligned RF or the lens or both and suggest appropriate remedies instead of leaving it to trial and error.

5. Software is developed to schedules just like verything else. Sometimes those schedules slip (See Microsoft for a good example) and it is embarrasing but that doesn't mean you don't have one.

6. People here had reason to be concerned because of the prior news release with no follow up communications direct from Leica only indirectly from Sean and Sean's site which is not public (I am a subscriber and really like Sean's work). The rumors about a falling out between Leica and Jenoptiks and the end of the DMR didn't help.

7. I think we all want a solid reliable camera that performs as well as this camera does when all is right with it.

8. I appreciate the help I have received on this site and try and return the favor whenever I can. I have considrerable expertise in software and its development as well as marketing so my advise is meant to help Leica be the best they can be to steal a quote from the military recruiters.

[plasticman]

Guy - it was stated above that you and Sean had said you were beta-testing the software. If i misunderstood that statement then accept my apology.

 

Why on earth you took my initial question as a personal insult i have frankly no idea - my follow-up question possibly confirmed that my faith in your objective judgement is not entirely wholehearted. This has no bearing whatsoever in my opinion of you as a photographer, nor in the fact that you are unquestionably a helpful and informative member of this forum. That is a whole other matter than testing software imho.

 

Sean - i absolutely never said that i thought 1.10 would be vaporware. Nor am i sceptical about the progress that Leica are making.

I also continue to appreciate your site as the absolutely best source of information on these cameras on the internet.

 

The dlux2 is gonna be dusted-off over the weekend, when i fly over to Barcelona to take a quick look at a photoshoot that's gonna be happening over the following week. Unfortunately, my enthusiasm for the camera waned a little when i expected the M8 to be in my hands by now.

 

Now it's time for me to leave the office and go to the apartment me and my partner bought this morning (or rather, signed all the final papers for today). It's on Birger Jarlsgatan - the Swedes on the forum will know that i have a smile on my face, and frankly, any number of insults and flames won't wipe that off.

 

Best!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Mani it is the way you write I guess that sounds like that and as i said before it maybe the cultrual difference that we share ,so let's just drop that and move forward.

 

Just for reference though beta testers always sign a NDA and they simply can't talk about what testing is going on to protect any companies intellectual property. This is true for all camera companies.

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[sean_reid]

Guy - it was stated above that you and Sean had said you were beta-testing the software. If i misunderstood that statement then accept my apology...

Sean - i absolutely never said that i thought 1.10 would be vaporware. Nor am i sceptical about the progress that Leica are making.

I also continue to appreciate your site as the absolutely best source of information on these cameras on the internet.

 

The dlux2 is gonna be dusted-off over the weekend, when i fly over to Barcelona to take a quick look at a photoshoot that's gonna be happening over the following week. Unfortunately, my enthusiasm for the camera waned a little when i expected the M8 to be in my hands by now.

 

Now it's time for me to leave the office and go to the apartment me and my partner bought this morning (or rather, signed all the final papers for today). It's on Birger Jarlsgatan - the Swedes on the forum will know that i have a smile on my face, and frankly, any number of insults and flames won't wipe that off.

 

Best!

 

Hi Mani,

 

Hopefully, things are clearer now. I've certainly not said I was beta testing anything. The comment that 1.10 is not vaporware was in response to one of the title questions of this thread.

 

Thanks for your comments on the site.

 

I'm looking forward to testing the D-Lux 3 when time allows. Congratulations on the new apartment.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean