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SD Card Tests with and without M9

Robert_M

By Robert_M
in Leica M9 / M-E

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Robert_M

Robert_M

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I would not be dumbfounded either way as the relevance of this test is completely unclearI would like to see it repeted with other cards an why does Windows see the card and Mac not? It indicates an area to be investigated nothing more IMO.

 

 

The reason that Windows sees a blank card and Mac OS doesn't is because Mac OS is not the perfect OS that so many users want to think it is. It has limitations and flaws just like Windows has limitations and flaws. They are just different flaws.

 

In my limited use of Mac OS, I see that it can not recognize the SD card if the FAT is corrupted or appears unformatted. Windows xp can recognize a blank card with completely corrupted formatting; but it will only format the SD card in FAT or FAT32 format. Ubuntu (linux) will recognize blank cards (like windows does) and will additionally allow me to format in FAT, FAT32, or EXT3 (linux) file structure.

 

It is possible to mess up a SD card by passing it too close to a strong magnetic or electric field. That could make the card appear flawed or useless when in fact it just needs to be reformatted with a computer that recognizes truly blank cards. The cards are sold new have already been formatted to FAT32.

 

I suspect that many of the reported "flawed" cards which people toss out are really just temporarily corrupted and the card needs formatting from scratch. The fact that your Mac OS can not see the card does not mean the card is garbage. Some other OS can most probably see the card correct the formatting.

 

RM

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pop

pop

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... this seems to me akin to expecting soup manufacturers to sell teflon suits with every can. Since the dawn of time products have been made that are foolproof but not idiot proof.

 

Fact is "inappropriate and sometimes inadvertent user actions" - also known as "shit" - happens. Do stupid things and stupid things happen. Open a film back before rewinding and your film will be ruined. This appears no different. I never expected Leica to think for me and I don't now.

 

Bill, this is not the state of the art. You do expect the soup manufacturer to actually sell soup in a reasonable number of the cans sold. Not water or air and not poison, either.

 

Any properly designed piece of software can and should be expected to ignore user input when it arrives in an improper sequence. That happens to be the way software is designed if done professionally. There are techniques and tools which have been known for more than a quarter of a century which are about that very topic.

 

The software in a camera we're discussing is structurally simple, perhaps comparable in complexity to the software of the lifts in a high rise building. I would like hearing you being caught between floors because the software engineers could not be bothered to program the software such that the lift made sure it actually had arrived at a floor before opening a door.

 

It's software.

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john_newell

john_newell

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Although the M9 is plagued by intermittent failures, we have finally produced a case in which the M9 SD functionality seems to fail reliably on demand.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1787603-post92.html

 

That's incredibly advantageous as it offers the opportunity for a focused investigation.

I would be dumbfounded if Leica didn't take advantage of this.

I am positive they will.

 

That's real progress. Robert, many thanks for leading the way on that issue.

 

Best, K-H.

 

With respect (really), I think "plagued" is a gross overstatement. :)

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k-hawinkler

k-hawinkler

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I can confirm Robert's finding that the USB connected memory card in M9 fails to be reliably erased with zero overwrite with Disk Utility.

However, I cannot confirm Robert's assertion "that the M9 can not complete a continuous sequential write to the SD card via the USB interface."

 

Equipment used:

 

• MacBook Pro with Mac OS Lion

• Panasonic PASD8GBU1 8GB SDHC-UHS-I Memory Card

• Delkin Devices DEMCRU30 USB 3.0 Universal Memory Card Reader

 

Tests performed

 

• Mount USB connected Mass storage memory card in M9 on Mac OS Lion, takes about one minute, much much longer than on Snow Leopard.

 

• Erase card in Delkin with zero overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, works.

• Erase card in M9 via USB with zero overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, fails towards the end.

• Erase card in M9 via USB with zero overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, fails badly earlier, card not recognized by M9 when USB cable removed.

 

• Erase card in Delkin with zero overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, fails.

• Erase card in Delkin no overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, works.

• Erase card in M9 with Yes, card finally recognized by M9, works

• Erase card in M9 with Overwrite, works.

• Erase card in Delkin with zero overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, works.

• Erase card in M9 with Yes, works.

 

• Shoot 10 images, works.

• Mount USB connected Mass storage memory card in M9 on Mac OS Lion, takes about one minute.

• All 10 images are okay.

 

However

 

• Drive Genius 3 on Mac successfully scans and shreds the entire via USB connected memory card in the M9 in one seemingly continuous operation.

 

Subsequently Performed Tests

 

• Erase card in M9 with Yes, works.

• Erase card in M9 with Overwrite, works.

 

K-H.

 

 

I would like to add a couple things to this post, namely to show that the functionality in question actually works with other cameras.

So, what shouldn't be in question in this case is neither the Mac itself nor Disk Utility.

 

This is what I did:

 

I attached first my Nikon D3, and the my Nikon D300 via USB and Mass Storage setting to my MacBook Pro.

Inside the cameras I used one Compact Flash card, SanDisk Extreme IV, 8 GB.

I then used Disk Utility to erase with zero overwrite the memory card in each camera.

Each operation completely successfully.

 

The D3 was erased with overwrite under Mac OS X 10.6.8 Snow Leopard and under Mac OS X 10.7 Lion.

The D300 I only erased under Mac OS X 10.7 Lion.

 

Data rates measured were between 11 and 12 MB/s sustained write speed via the USB cable.

 

So, it's clear to me that a USB connected Mass storage memory card inside a camera should behave as the regular storage device that it is.

This functionality is currently not working reliably with the Leica M9, but needs to be made to work so.

 

K-H.

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colonel

colonel

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just wanted to say.

I have used class 6 cards. both shop branded (mobymemory) and integra. all 16gb.

I have also used sandisk extreme pro for a bit but was frightened off by this forum, so stopped.

Only taken 1000s of pics (not 10,000s) but never had any problem.

I only format on the camera (never format anywhere else) and don't delete. only reformat when full (just a habit as flash memory only lives for much fewer re-writes then hard disk).

I doubt my reliability is luck.

yes a camera this expensive should be reliable with class 10 when writing a new picture, deleting an old picture and switching off the camera at the same time. but I don't need to do this and my usage works fine.

it also worked fine like this with the M8 btw

 

also I have only ever had pictures corrupted once. and that was a sandisk cf card on a canon 5dii. I rescued the photos I could and chucked the card away!

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k-hawinkler

k-hawinkler

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Disk Utility has the option to either erase the entire disk/memory card or to erase free space.

 

When trying to erase this card Panasonic PASD8GBU1 8GB SDHC-UHS-I Memory Card, in the M9 with USB attached to my MacBook Pro, I find

 

• erasing with zero overwrite fails

• erasing free space (with overwrite) works - for the card just formatted in M9 by itself.

 

K-H.

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colonel

colonel

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What we know is:

With a limited amout of cameras intermittent problems occur with images that get lost,

 

I don't buy this "intermittent" thing

Its a problem with certain cards. Even with those cards they may work most of the time, thus the intermittent tag.

But with cards that work, they work completely.

 

Has anyone had any problems with class 6 or below non-Sandisk ? or sandisk genuine class 6 or below ?

I don't think so - not seen any evidence of that

 

Therefore I maintain this is a class 10 problem and also a problem with forged sandisk cards and certain of the latest sandisk cards

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Jamie Roberts

Jamie Roberts

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{Snipped}

 

So, it's clear to me that a USB connected Mass storage memory card inside a camera should behave as the regular storage device that it is.

This functionality is currently not working reliably with the Leica M9, but needs to be made to work so.

 

K-H.

 

Karl-Heinz,

 

I don't agree with this. There are so many variables here as to make a mess of the test.

 

First, a CF card architecture is completely different to an SD card's, as is the UDMA-compatible architecture of the cards hosted in the D3.

 

Secondly, the results you obtained at first that were different with one application than they were with another could point equally to the OS's inability to report things properly from the M9 as a card reader / drive host than they do to an actual problem between the M9 and the card. Logic does not dictate which way that coin flips.

 

So there are too many variables in this chain of testing.

 

My bet--and it is only a bet, since only Leica and Jenoptik have actual data--on this issue:

 

1) Cards that work, do work completely. IMO there are too many people using the M9 with no issue for this not to be the case.

2) Sandisk's internal format / architecture has changed in some non-wholly-compatible fashion

3) There is probably some rather difficult to predict combination of key-presses that help to trigger an event while the camera is writing with certain cards

4) SD card compatibility issues will grow as other dSLR manufacturers move to SD from CF...Leica won't be the last brand to suffer from these issues.

5) Leica / Jenoptik will improve the robustness of their read / write functions through firmware

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Jamie Roberts

Jamie Roberts

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{snipped}

Therefore I maintain this is a class 10 problem and also a problem with forged sandisk cards and certain of the latest sandisk cards

 

While I agree with you for the most part about cards working, I don't think this is a class 10 or even a UHS problem... I've been using class 10 cards for a long time now and they're fine.

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