menos I M6 Posted July 13, 2011 Share #1 Posted July 13, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have some recent interest in panoramic film cameras. As usual, one evaluates, if buying a certain tool does make sense, so I am out, shooting with the M with panoramic format in mind: one of the experiments on Today's blog post Thinking this further, I truly value both the compact size of the Leica M system (compared to some panoramic cameras, the M truly is small) and the excellence, especially of the latest ASPH lenses with very resolution and minimal light and sharpness fall off, fitting perfect the idea of using them for true panoramic needs. There is this idea, to have a version of the digital Leica M with an imager, optimized for a wider form factor with higher resolution. What are your thoughts regarding such body - a true Leica M9-P(anoramic) ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Hi menos I M6, Take a look here A panoramic image format digital M ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted July 13, 2011 Share #2 Posted July 13, 2011 You'd have to have a completely new set of lenses, so it wouldn't be an "M" I'd buy a digital X-Pan though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted July 13, 2011 You'd have to have a completely new set of lenses, so it wouldn't be an "M" I'd buy a digital X-Pan though. Andy, the idea, that struck me viewing, what might be possible with current equipment was, to not widen the sensor and increasing the lens' image circle, but, to actually cropping the sensor and increasing pixel/mm, to a border, where modern Leica M lens is still capable of resolving the higher resolution, given, that modern M lenses do have a higher potential of resolving detail, than the current 18MP M9 sensor. This would be the only way, to keep the wonderful small form factor. The view finder masks would be changed (keeping the viewfinder optics and rangefinder as is). The sensor aspect ratio would be changed with an increase of pixel pitch (optionally the aspect ration could be retained at the higher cost of sensor manufacturing). The linked photo in my blog from Today has been shot from a moving car through a fogged glass window with a more than 50 year old lens with rather open aperture. You can imagine, what this shot would look like with a 50 Lux ASPH instead (this little Panoramic experiment might as well revive my diminished love to my Lux ASPH, which sat in storage unused since I got the f1 Noct). I am quite excited about this little idea, as a digital XPan is a lot less likely on the horizon than a modular (design and production wise) digital Leica M Panoramic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ismon Posted July 13, 2011 Share #4 Posted July 13, 2011 In a word...FARUX Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 13, 2011 Share #5 Posted July 13, 2011 How about stitching? This was done handheld. panorama carnivale - pano 1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 13, 2011 Share #6 Posted July 13, 2011 I am quite excited about this little idea, as a digital XPan is a lot less likely on the horizon than a modular (design and production wise) digital Leica M Panoramic. While I love the idea, I must say I think these two 'concept cameras' are roughly equidistant from the horizon... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 13, 2011 Share #7 Posted July 13, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Given the output easily achievable from stitching software these days, the chances of a panoramic digital camera are zero. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 13, 2011 Share #8 Posted July 13, 2011 Andy, the idea, that struck me viewing, what might be possible with current equipment was, to not widen the sensor and increasing the lens' image circle, but, to actually cropping the sensor and increasing pixel/mm, to a border, where modern Leica M lens is still capable of resolving the higher resolution, given, that modern M lenses do have a higher potential of resolving detail, than the current 18MP M9 sensor. How does cropping turn an ordinary camera into a panoramic camera, even if it coincides with an increase in resolution? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haroldp Posted July 13, 2011 Share #9 Posted July 13, 2011 Given the output easily achievable from stitching software these days, the chances of a panoramic digital camera are zero. I agree, as long as the subject (and photographer ) are not moving it is easy to take several overlapping frames. I usually use autopano for stitching, but other software is also good. I have panos from 3 frames to 27 frames (3 up, 9 across) on my website at Harold Piskiel - Fine Art . For landscapes in particular, stitching replaces larger formats vert effectively. Some of my images are over 200 mp. Regards ... H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share #10 Posted July 14, 2011 In a word...FARUX How about stitching? This was done handheld.panorama carnivale - pano 1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Stitching is no option for me, as mostly, I take photos on the run. My linked photograph would not have been possible with stitching. I generally do not shoot landscapes, which is the one big reason for many people's for reasoning a panoramic format. This is not, what I am after. I carry most of the times two different bodies, sometimes three for different focal lengths or different media. The addition of a M body, dedicated for a panoramic image format would be a nice idea for me. While I love the idea, I must say I think these two 'concept cameras' are roughly equidistant from the horizon... I agree, unfortunately. I too see a modular design approach on the side of Leica possible, where tooling and assembly of the major camera parts are shared, the wonderful lenses are retained, pushing some of them to their possible limits in resolution, while a new sensor, accompanying electronics and software are of a new development. One could research numbers of sold panoramic cameras, including cropped medium format solutions - during the time, film has been the only solution for this very purpose, there have been quite a few solutions from diverse manufacturers around. With the great success of the Leica M system over the last two years, an aggressive marketing, penetrating into medium format panorama interest, this could be a financially viable concept - a camera system for 35mm format with worlds most advanced optics and a solution for film, digital 24x36mm + a special panoramic high resolution sensor camera with 18 or 24MP in 2x6 ratio. Just imagine! Given the output easily achievable from stitching software these days, the chances of a panoramic digital camera are zero. Again - stitching is a solution only for a rather slow workflow. While certain images with semi active subjects are viable (including typical landscapes with immobile conditions), others are often impossible - take my example, a drive by shot from a moving car! Any spontaneous approach to the now so often called "street photography" is killed. How does cropping turn an ordinary camera into a panoramic camera, even if it coincides with an increase in resolution? I don't understand your question. Replacing the current 2x3 aspect ratio 18MP sensor of the M9 with a high resolution (border being the lens' resolution) 2x6 aspect ration panoramic sensor transforms a current Leica M style body into a genuine panoramic camera, doesn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 14, 2011 Share #11 Posted July 14, 2011 Depends on how one defines a panoramic camera - for a lot of us, it doesn't simply mean a large-aspect-ratio image, but also a "panning" exposure (thus the name), like a Widelux. A "fisheye" in one dimension. http://photo.net/bboard-uploads/00NrLy-40718584.jpg A true "pan"-oramic camera takes in 140°-150° of scenery, compared to the 90°-100° of cameras like the XPan or Fuji 6x17. 100 years ago, there were "banquet" cameras - designed for group portraits to commemorate events (like - sometimes - banquet dinners). The "banquet camera" is the real granddaddy of the flat-film, wide-aspect-ratio, motionless-lens Fuji and XPan. Folmer & Schwing Mfg. Co., NY Banquet Camera Notably, the Widelux, the BC, the Fuji 6x17 and the XPan all take OVERSIZE images, not crops. They e(XPan)d the image area, not reduce it. So they are different from simply cropping an image out of a larger piece of film or silicon (which one can do with any image). Marketers like to promote horizontal cropping as "panoramic" - notably as one of the formats (APS-P) for the short-lived APS film system. Also crops to HDTV (16:9) format in digicams. But we don't listen to marketing hype, do we? That being said (to explain mjh's comment)... It can equally be argued that a Fuji 6x17 is actually using a lens designed for 8 x 10 view cameras - cropped to a wider aspect ratio on smaller (120) film. Equivalent to menos|M6's suggestion for cropping an M-mount wideangle to a smaller piece of silicon. Neither gets anywhere near the 140° panorama a Widelux can capture, but do avoid the fisheye distortion. Bottom line - how many specialized pano cameras (using the loose definition) does Leica have to sell to pay off the development costs of a specialized sensor and specialized firmware? My own dream goes in the opposite direction (and is equally unlikely ) - a 30mm x 30mm CMOS sensor (~25 Mpixels) feeding a hooded 2.25" x 2.25" live-view screen placed horizontally - to replicate Hassy or Rolleiflex waistlevel viewing, using the full image circle of any 35mm lens, to make "6x6" images. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share #12 Posted July 14, 2011 Thanks for the lesson Andy - always interesting facts, you name there ;-) It looks though, as I might be the only person, enthusiastic about such device. I am really not interested in hairsplitting about definitions of panoramic cameras. Try it for yourself - there are potential interesting images to be made, where just cutting off the 18MP M9 frame is not pulling the whole potential out of what could be done in this interesting aspect ratio. How many of you carry several M bodies to a shoot - would you be interested to have one really specialized, very different addition, that shares your whole Leica M system's components? I certainly would, but I might as well be nuts, as I am one of these guys, who also would run to the shop, the moment, Leica introduces a true monochrome imager in a digital M without LCD and manual shutter cocking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 14, 2011 Share #13 Posted July 14, 2011 It looks though, as I might be the only person, enthusiastic about such device. Believe me, you're not. But I rate the chance of this camera coming from Leica as somewhat less than zero. I wouldn't totally rule it out from another manufacturer who likes going out on a limb (I'm looking at you, Fuji), but a diversion like that would need to follow a few years' success with some other formats first, I imagine. XPan seems to be the way to go. I'm still really, really annoyed that I missed a local (live) auction last year when a new, boxed and never opened XPan sold for under $2k. Every time I see a beat-up unit going for about the same it irritates the cr@p outta me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share #14 Posted July 14, 2011 XPan seems to be the way to go. I'm still really, really annoyed that I missed a local (live) auction last year when a new, boxed and never opened XPan sold for under $2k. Every time I see a beat-up unit going for about the same it irritates the cr@p outta me. I am constantly scanning all sources now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted July 14, 2011 Share #15 Posted July 14, 2011 It looks though, as I might be the only person, enthusiastic about such device. How many of you carry several M bodies to a shoot - would you be interested to have one really specialized, very different addition, that shares your whole Leica M system's components? Menos, catch up with the crowd, bud. How small a kit do you want your kit to be ? I call this my M9-P_anoramic Accurate Nodal Point Rotating Device, or 'my plate' for short. Custom made for the Nodal points of 4 lenses. Whole kit fits in the pockets of a coat, including my two M9's with lenses and the table top tripod (big pockets, mind). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/156749-a-panoramic-image-format-digital-m/?do=findComment&comment=1733678'>More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 14, 2011 Share #16 Posted July 14, 2011 Whole kit fits in the pockets of a coat, including my two M9's with lenses and the table top tripod (big pockets, mind). Rolo - seeing that image of the M9-P almost makes me think I could put up with the M9's color rendition to get such a beautiful camera... Can't imagine what the coat looks like though - but I'm guessing when you come down the street it scares the sh*t out of the local kids... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 14, 2011 Share #17 Posted July 14, 2011 Rolo scares the sh*t out of me, when I see him walking down the street, but the kids round here are made of tougher stuff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 14, 2011 Share #18 Posted July 14, 2011 Replacing the current 2x3 aspect ratio 18MP sensor of the M9 with a high resolution (border being the lens' resolution) 2x6 aspect ration panoramic sensor transforms a current Leica M style body into a genuine panoramic camera, doesn't it? No, it does not. ‘Panoramic’ implies widening the field of view, not restricting it by cropping. The widespread mis-use of the term ‘panoramic’ started, I think, with the Advanced Photo System (APS) that offered a choice between three image sizes, APS-C, APS-H, and APS-P. APS-P stood for ‘panoramic’ and boasted an aspect ratio of 3:1 (created by cropping, of course). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted July 14, 2011 Share #19 Posted July 14, 2011 My own dream goes in the opposite direction (and is equally unlikely ) - a 30mm x 30mm CMOS sensor (~25 Mpixels) feeding a hooded 2.25" x 2.25" live-view screen placed horizontally - to replicate Hassy or Rolleiflex waistlevel viewing, using the full image circle of any 35mm lens, to make "6x6" images. Samsung may be up to something in this department, there is glimps of likely mirrorless/reflex squre format digital camera. It is on photo rumors site, my work computer doesn't open the page so can't provide the link, sorry. Edit, took me 15 minutes to upload the page - never complain about slow camera firmware... http://photorumors.com/2011/07/11/samsung-nx200-to-be-released-this-month-nx20-coming-in-january-2012/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PhotoRumors+%28PhotoRumors.com%29 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share #20 Posted July 14, 2011 Definitely too much hairsplitting and too little creativity in this discussion. In times, I get the feeling some here don't get to see the sun much … Let's read up on the definition of "Panorama" in the diverse available encyclopedia … What about calling the device not "M9-P(anoramic)" but "M9-C(ropped sensor with raised pixel pitch, to imitate a Panoramic camera)" - better? Call it what you will - the idea is simple - I am out shooting. Will be looking for a XPan. Better to shoot wide than think narrow I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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