Thinking of trading my Olympus E-P2 for an X1. Is this reasonable?

[bob24]

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Hey,

 

So I went to a store today to take the X1 in hands for the first time, and of course I loved the look and handling of the camera. I want it, but I'm trying to decide if I really need it and if it would be better for my use than my current E-P2 (I know the 2 are playing in a different league :-)).

 

I mostly take pictures while traveling (which I do a lot lately - for pleasure and business with some pleasure part). Those are mainly pictures of sights, landscapes, or street scenes. I also occasionally use the camera to take pictures at social occasions.

 

Here are some samples (like I said, just an amateur and I am still learning - you're allowed to say a Leica is a waste of money for what I do - I still like it for the beautiful object it is :-)): Flickr: borisindublin's Photostream

 

It would probably be my only camera, aside from my iPhone 4 which is nice to have in good light conditions and when nothing else is available. My first serious camera was a Nikon D40 which I liked, but I was tired of carrying it around and of spending time in front of the computer doing RAW processing. I now have an Olympus E-P2 which is most of the time paired to a Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 lens (and I also use the kit lens, maybe 25-30% of the time). I like the Olympus a lot because it is easy to carry and I am very happy with the ooc JPEGs (I never shoot RAW, and only sometimes make minor adjustments to the JPEGs - mostly contrast boost or straightening/cropping). Plus the camera looks pretty nice which somehow matters to me (part of my attraction to the X1 as well). I also get interesting results with the Olympus "art filters" once in a while.

 

So here what I think I would gain:

- better overall image quality for a similarly sized package (sensor and lens) - but doubts about the JPEGs results

- much better handling ergonomics (the Olympus has so many confusing menus, and I really like the simple approach of the X1. The only thing I would be missing from the many (useless?) features are the art filters

- I get to try my first Leica! Is it worth the price??

- a gorgeous looking camera - and I like beautiful objects

 

Here is what I would lose:

- JPEG processing seems not as good on the Leica - see my question

- focusing speed seems not as good as the E-P2 + 20mm combo (maybe I would start, but right know I use manual focusing rarely - only when I know the AF will get what I want to do wrong which for sure) - see my other question

- the art filter (I know you will find it silly, but sometimes they do give fun results)

- aspect ratio selection in camera - as I like to get the picture exactly the way I want the in camera - I like the the Olympus lets me select between 16/9, 3/2, 4/3, or square aspect ratio - see question as well

- No more access to a zoom lense. I like the 40mm focal and the X1 is not that different - so I guess I could live with this but I am still thinking about it

 

Here are my questions to you X1 specialists:

- The sensor definitely has better hi ISO performance compared to a micro 4/3. Would you say dynamic range also is better?

- The tendency around the web is to say the camera is not great to shoot JPEG and that the Olympus processing is far better. I find it difficult to judge with the available samples - to be it looks like the main thing is that the EP2 produces more contrasty and saturated result which could be obtained with change the settings on the X1. Are the JPEGS really so bad? Any JPEG shooters around to reassure me?

- The camera I tried in store definitely had slow AF speed compared to my E-P2, but I checked and it was still running firmware 1.0. I saw some 1.0 vs 2.0 comparisons on Youtube but the results vary from 10% faster to twice as fast. What is the truth in there. Does anyone own both an X1 and a PEN and could comment on the speed difference?

- The AF on the PEN is quick, but regularly gets it wrong (it doesn't identify the subject correctly and picks the wrong AF point) - what is your experience with the X1?

- How is the screen? The resolution is the same as the E-P2 which is fine with me, but how is refresh speed, color accuracy and usability under a strong sun? (The E-P2 does pretty well)

 

And as my post is too long already my final questions: is there anything you believe I am missing in the gains and loses? The list of what I lose is longer, but image quality and ergonomics are very important so if my AF and JPEG worries are not so justified I think I will love it. Does it sound like to you the camera is right for me?

 

Thanks a lot in advance for your comments!

[ezc203]

Welcome to the Forum Bob,

 

Just took a quick skim of your Flickr and you have some very lovely images there.

 

Now I will attempt to address some of your questions/concerns...

 

1. the X1's ooc JPEG is actually VERY GOOD. Probably one of the best camera I've owned in that respect

 

2. Firmware 2 is significantly faster. I did a comparison with a friend's camera recently and it is noticeably faster (I doubt I can notice a 10% increase in speed)

 

3. The X1 has many focusing options to choice from. If you use 1 Point or Spot, you'll nail the focus a vast majority of the times (however it is slower than the other options)

 

4. Screen sucks. Period. Nothing you can really do there

 

-

 

I don't know how I would feel if the X1 was my ONLY camera. The lack of a zoom or ability to change lenses is extremely limiting. Judging my your Flickr stream I'd say you miss that versatility. However, with that said, the X1 is my go-to camera for vacation/traveling. More so than my M8, 5Dii, or any film camera. And the reason is that it has a nice wide lens that produces superb quality images - a focal length that account for 80% of my pictures (when I'm traveling) and the screen allows for accurate framing.

 

The decision is yours my friend. What I would do is buy it ASAP and shoot it for a while. If it suits you, great! - sell the EP2 gear. If it doesn't, you can always sell the X1 at minimal loss.

[prk60091]

I use the x1 exclusively although I have a clux(now used solely for underwater shots with a housing) and I find I take less photos but better ones. Be aware the x1 has a long and steep learning curve to optimize the images. It is deceptively simple.

[ChipMcD]

From your questions and expressed preferences, I think you might want to stick with the Olympus, at least if you are thinking with your head, not your heart.

 

I am relatively new to digital, but have a lot of years on the clock taking photos. I have an X1 and an M9. The image quality from the X1 is really superb, even when compared with the full frame M9's images. You will get a larger sensor with the X1. I have been shooting DNG+JPEG exclusively and deleting the JPEGs to focus on the DNGs. You are interested in the JPEGs. I have not been able to compare the two cameras except on paper, but given the longer history of Olympus with digital cameras and Leica's focus on lens quality, I would think that the JPEG in-camera processing would be more sophisticated. There are no art filters on the X1. You also are limited to one lens, a 35mm equivalent, which I have not found to be a terrible handicap because there is enough real estate on the sensor to stand some cropping without bad image degradation.

 

For a REALLY thoughtful, thorough review of the X1, see Sean Reid's review on reidreviews.com. It is a subscription site, but well worth the relatively small fee. Reid covers comparisons to several X1 competitors, not including the X100, which he more recently reviewed separately. That review crystalized my thinking on the X1 by pointing out its strengths and weaknesses.

 

Good luck. Either way, you'll have some good iron in your hands.

[starshipstu]

bob24,

I moved from a GF1 to an X1 a few months ago. I was using the 20mm/1.7 and the 45/2.8 with the GF1, but found myself using the 20mm almost 90% of the time. I have found the 36mm on the X1 a reasonable replacement, and have not missed having a zoom.

 

Answers:

1) Dynamic range is not noticeably better. What is much better is the ability to set the X1 in 800 or 1600 and leave it there, and come away with good output (compared to the micro 4/3 sensor). The dpreview review of the X1 has a lot of dynamic range data.

2) I like the jpg output of the X1, and would put it in league with the EPL-2 in terms of jpg output if you tweak the jpg settings in camera to your liking. Aperture (at least) processes the X1 DNG files with more contrast and saturation (by far) than the default jpg settings. I find myself shooting in Vivid mode on the X1 most of the time (with mid-low contrast and/or mid-low saturation). A nice thing about the X1 is that it has virtually the same highlight dynamic range in Vivid mode (with higher contrast) as Standard mode (although there is a loss of shadow range in Vivid mode). This is different than the GF1 which lost too much highlight dynamic range in higher-contrast modes. Unfortunately, upping the contrast in Standard mode jpg does decrease the highlight dynamic range (see the dpreview article). So I am still tweaking. Also note that the DNG files are big (18MB) for a 12MP sensor.

3) Autofocus and general response of the X1 is slower. Much slower than the GF1. However, the ability to lock hyper-focal focusing combined with good high-ISO performance has allowed me to capture some very good action shots (IMO, a better chance of success than relying on fast AF).

4) AF is very accurate

5) Screen is not as good as GF1. May be on par with P2 (not sure - kind of reminds me of a EPL1 screen). Optical viewfinder is awesome with X1.

[bob24]

Furet, thanks for thé man y answers (which all are quite balanced).

 

Yes thinking with my head I tend to lean towards the E-P2 :-) but on the other hand the X1 is really attractive, and ezc203 has a good point that I can just buy one to give it a try and sell it if I don't like it. I loose some money but not that much, and then I will know. The "fear" is than I will love it but come to the conclusion that the la k of zoom is sometimes annoying - and thus keep both cameras! Not a big deal but they a bit redundant apart from the zoom and them I would have to decide which one to take with me when traveling. Tough sweet life :-)

 

Anyway I'm reassured about the JPEG quality thanks - and I think I could deal with the AF and I'm willing to play with manual focusing (agreed that for quick capture of street scences the E-P2 AF speed and accuracy in not sufficient anyway, so zone focusing seems like a good idea).

 

The only real worry left is the screen as I don't really like using a viewfinder (I don't find it convenient because of my glasses, and I like to see a preview of the adjustments I make on the screen). But I can deal with the E-P2 which is probably not as good as the GF1 either, so probably I'd be fine.

 

I might see if I can find a used X1 for a good price.. If I find one in good condition I would definitely give it a try! otherwise I need a bit more time to decide to throw in the 2000 dollars.

 

Prk60091, good comment, taking less pictures but better ones straight our of the camera is what I am trying to do :-) First I liked digital because I could take tons of pics and there would always be some good ones and you can always make them look better on the computer. But now I came to realise that it is more interesting to spend time getting it right the first time feather than spending hours deciding which of my many shots I want to keep and how to adjust them. And btw my Englsih is fairly good but I'm not a native, and with "deceptively" you reminded me I'm not there yet. Such a simple looking word but I had to think and look it up to make sure what you meant ;-)

[wda]

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bob24, Welcome to the Leica Forum!

Some good advice given above. One possible way forward is to buy the X1 and allow time to master it. Then consider adding the D-Lux5 to complement it for travel, personal pictures etc. While the latter won't rival your X1's very high image quality, it will give you a very useful zoom lens for those family situations when you can't easily jump around a room indoors chasing children! I have both and use them in this way.

[Guest Holy Moly]

There is no way to replace my E-P2 with a X1. The P&S style and the lack of changing lenses makes the X1 for me nothing to lust for. If I would need more sensor size plus higher ISO capability a X100 would be added, but not the X1. It's simply not so responsive for my shooting style. That's all.

[wda]

There is no way to replace my E-P2 with a X1. The P&S style and the lack of changing lenses makes the X1 for me nothing to lust for. If I would need more sensor size plus higher ISO capability a X100 would be added, but not the X1. It's simply not so responsive for my shooting style. That's all.

 

With such entrenched views Holy Moly, I wonder why you waste your time in the X1 forum.

[bob24]

There is no way to replace my E-P2 with a X1. The P&S style and the lack of changing lenses makes the X1 for me nothing to lust for. If I would need more sensor size plus higher ISO capability a X100 would be added, but not the X1. It's simply not so responsive for my shooting style. That's all.

 

Not sure what you mean by P&S style. As much as I like my E-P2, I think the X1 is more style and has more "classic" controls.

 

Argh ... I think I might buy the X1 and keep the E-P2, not good for my wallet!!! :-s

[likealeica]

Is it getting to be time to wait for an X2, or maybe to see what Leica announces in June?

[village idiot!]

I did the same switch, EP-2 to X1

 

No regrets what so ever!

 

Bigger sensor and it's at my preferred focal length for street shooting.

 

Micro 4/3s is an upgrade from P&Ss for sure but the even larger sensor in the X1 is a major upgrade.

[Guest Holy Moly]

Not sure what you mean by P&S style. As much as I like my E-P2, I think the X1 is more style and has more "classic" controls.

 

Argh ... I think I might buy the X1 and keep the E-P2, not good for my wallet!!! :-s

 

P&S in my eyes means:

 

retractable lens, moving in/out, long time quality, dust and light leaks must be taken with a questionmark.

Working only with the back screen - in harsh backlight a challenge, the lowest level of quality,even at the time of launching the camera.

When adding a simple viewfinder with brightlines the camera volume is nearly the same.

 

Two for me important features are:

image stabilization in camera - very fine for shooting with Leica M lenses

Sensor cleaning - the best from all brands inclusive DSLRs.

 

OOC pics in colour are phantastic from the E-P2 - for me a reason to start streetphotography in colour beside film- b&w with a Leica M4-P and Bessa or NikonF.

[ezc203]

Your definition of a P&S seems to be along the lines of a Piece of Shit. Which I cannot agree with, there are a number of quality P&S on the market that serve their owners very well....

[Guest Holy Moly]

Your definition of a P&S seems to be along the lines of a Piece of Shit. Which I cannot agree with, there are a number of quality P&S on the market that serve their owners very well....

 

haha, I'm using P&S by myself, so I know the pros & cons of the two discussed systems.

Ricoh's GRDs f.e. are fast and responsive streetcameras and their UI has been modified and upgraded over the years. But it's a P&S compare to a Pen E-Px as is the X1. The EVF and some other features make the difference, that's all.

[bob24]

Is it getting to be time to wait for an X2, or maybe to see what Leica announces in June?

 

Good question! But the wait might be long I guess :-)

[prk60091]

Good question! But the wait might be long I guess :-)

 

For what it is worth Steve huff has posted that Leica won't release an x2 until 2012. There was an earlier thread and speculation/rumor that the x2 wouldnt jbe released until 2012 p'kina which is a year+ from now. A very long wait.

[bob24]

For what it is worth Steve huff has posted that Leica won't release an x2 until 2012. There was an earlier thread and speculation/rumor that the x2 wouldnt jbe released until 2012 p'kina which is a year+ from now. A very long wait.

 

Yes ... And I am new to Leica but it seems when they announce something it take a while before it actually is available (I remember reading about the X1 almost 6 months before releas right?)

 

I actually tried to order it yesterday as I'm in the US right now and ordering online tax free it turns out a bit cheaper than in Europe where I live. But my bank refused the credit card transaction is I have a fairly low monthly limit for spendings abroad which I wasn't aware of :-s Will see what deal I can get in Europe when I'm back ...

[bob24]

P&S in my eyes means:

 

retractable lens, moving in/out, long time quality, dust and light leaks must be taken with a questionmark.

Working only with the back screen - in harsh backlight a challenge, the lowest level of quality,even at the time of launching the camera.

When adding a simple viewfinder with brightlines the camera volume is nearly the same.

 

Two for me important features are:

image stabilization in camera - very fine for shooting with Leica M lenses

Sensor cleaning - the best from all brands inclusive DSLRs.

 

OOC pics in colour are phantastic from the E-P2 - for me a reason to start streetphotography in colour beside film- b&w with a Leica M4-P and Bessa or NikonF.

 

 

I get your points and clearly the X1 is missing stuff the EP2 has.

 

However I think your definition of P&S is pretty flawed.

 

Just one question to illustrate this: what is the percentage of pictures taken with a Leica X1 is fully automatic mode (literally point and shoot)? My guess: pretty low, maybe 20% max.

Now, what is the percentage for an EP2? my guess: 70% or more.

 

Main reason of that: 1) the ergonomics of the EP2 is not as good for manual settings 2) different user group (which is linked to the first point)

 

Now, I still thing the EP2 is the best camera I have own to date for my needs.

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[kschwarz]

Bob24:

 

I took a look at your Flickr pics and I think that you would be well served by the X1. The 35mm equivalent lens fits the perspective of most of your photos. The low noise at high-iso of the X1 will be an improvement for your night shots, and the X1 will travel better with you than the EP-2 (assuming you are using a lens larger than the pancake). Lastly, the X1 has unbelievably great IQ when it focuses correctly (be prepared for a slightly higher than normal percentage of OOF shots that appear from time to time without clear reason). You should also consider the X100, which has all the benefits of the X1 + better viewing (OVF, EVF, and better LCD) + better macro + a lens that does not extend when the camera is on (better for traveling) + movie mode (also good occasionally when traveling or for documentation at trade shows, etc). Both the X1 and X100 have very simple controls, but the X100 has a complex menu system. The X1 is beautiful, but the proportions are a bit off to my eye (looks like a thicker/squatter M camera) compared to the X100 which has classic/beautiful lines (looks like a classic Nikon S3 rangefinder). Just my 2 cents...