Viewfinder options, so many, which to choose and why?

[Guest stnami]

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Anyway it's a piece of junk.

......only to the inept

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[diogenis]

I presume you are aware that this is a hypothetical discussion. However I am curious how you could know for sure that it can't be done. Maybe it is just a question of costs or other factors we are not privy to that are subject to change.

 

But if you do have some kind of special knowledge on the subject, do you have an idea how long it will be before this will be possible?

 

Of course it is not hypothetical discussion: NO manufacturer of the HIGH END/PRO camera makers, make ANY sort of EVF camera and NEITHER do I have EVER seen professional photographers using one at work. Coincidence?

 

Will that trend change anytime soon? Nobody knows, but if we want to make a bet, I would say not, until EVF technology changes.

 

There are EVFs in various other p&s cameras. Want one? Buy one, there are tens to choose from. M9, D3 Sony alpha are pro cameras.

 

 

Edit: Actually not only that, Leica has also made it clear that they hate them. I can't otherwise explain, that their single offering of it is actually more expensive than the camera it goes with.

[diogenis]

......only to the inept

 

But the ...inept here are millions, while the capable that have bought the junk are like 6 people Anyway it is junk in any way you want to see it Imants.

[cernobila]

Edit: Actually not only that, Leica has also made it clear that they hate them.

 

I would like to read this information, could you point me in the right direction, thank you.

[diogenis]

I would like to read this information, could you point me in the right direction, thank you.

 

Read the rest not just a part of a sentence. It's not even Leica's to begin with

[diogenis]

And to finally give an end to this boring thread, here are comments of a typical user that compares the X1 and the X100 with hybrid viefinder and other paraphernalia. The post is within this forum from a user, that sees the reality after all the marketing hype dust settles. Take a look: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-x1-forum/175122-superb.html

 

I dedicate this to Alan.

Cernobia, you seem to me as another victim of the Japanese marketing hype. Or maybe not. There are many camera makers that now make EVFs: Oly, Panasonic, Fuji to name a few. Those comments coming from a real user are really valuable.

[AlanG]

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It may come as a shock to you Diogenis but I am a reasonably successful commercial photographer who has used an EVF camera (Konica/Minolta A2) on numerous assignments.

 

An early digital camera from around 1999 was a 2 megapixel Olympus 2000Z that had an optical finder and an LCD. (No EVF) I figure I earned about $100,000 or more from that camera over a year or two. Did you know that if you shoot for web sites or for virtual reality tours that 2 megapixels is usually overkill?

 

I think I have produced some very nice images with both of these cameras. But maybe the results are not important to you as the cameras I am using are "junk" in your mind. I guess I was just another victim of Japanese hype who is now privileged to be enlightened by you.

 

Here is a link to one of the A2 images that was used for advertisements and on several magazine covers. This was shot hand held while I leaned over the balcony. I used the A2 camera instead of my full frame one because it would give more depth of field without resorting to rigging a tripod to lean out from the balcony.

 

http://goldsteinphoto.com/modelhomes/agphomes%20024.jpg

[cernobila]

Cernobia, you seem to me as another victim of the Japanese marketing hype. Or maybe not. There are many camera makers that now make EVFs: Oly, Panasonic, Fuji to name a few. Those comments coming from a real user are really valuable.

 

I am not a commercial photographer nor will I ever call myself a "professional" because I only take pictures for myself and don't like to be told what to photograph......After people look at some of my work they shake their head and say why don't I make money by going commercial.....this is not for me.

 

I rarely watch commercial TV and go out of my way not to buy what is advertised.

 

In 2004 I purchased my first digital camera, after reading "Choice" a type of independent consumer advice magazine. The compact camera that had given the best picture quality was the Olympus Camedia C5060. It has a small flip out LCD screen, which was a surprise, as well as an optical viewfinder. It was not long before I fell in love with that little screen and rarely used the optical viewfinder since. Some of my best work was taken with that Japanese 5 megapixel camera, I still have it in my glass cabinet. Nowdays I like the reflex Olympus gear and also have the two small Japanese Leicas (V Lux 20 for my wife and D Lux 5 for my travels, where I don't want to carry too much stuff)

[bill]

Alan, being competent at what you do neither needs to be proven nor does it make your opinion more valid than any other.

 

What continues to stump me reading every thread of this type to which you regularly contribute -pretty much the only topic on which you engage here, if truth be told - is your inexplicably ardent desire for change to the Leica M concept when you don't, to my recollection, own an M of any sort, have a declared intent to buy one or indeed make a living using one; in short, you show involvement but absolutely no commitment.

 

On the other hand there are many professional photographers on the Forum and no doubt many more off it who happily make their living using M bodies and glass who are conspicuous by their silence and by their lack of postings in support of your views in this "hypothetical debate".

 

Equally, there are many cameras on the market right now that do exactly what you want and that you can, and presumably do, use for your purposes to the satisfaction of your clients.

 

It seems from your every example as if the current M concept and your needs are chalk and cheese. It is further clear from your every straw man argument that you simply don't see the value of the current M design in spite of the best efforts of better and more cogent contributors than me to get you to even recognise the validity of an alternative view and the right of others to hold it in peace without being criticised, ridiculed and belittled for doing so.

 

Why not just accept that the M is not for you and stop trying to pretzel the world and the M to suit your personal and quite specific needs. It is a demonstrable fact that there are already tools for your job; use them, in good health and be happy with the results.

 

Regards,

 

Bil

[Guest stnami]

Diogenis the millions are a lot more forgiving and find a way of working within the restrictions it is the 6 who are the worry

[diogenis]

Imants, sadly this is not the case. Not in our modern societies any way.

 

Edit: unless you are talking about a Mr. Influential, like for example if your name begun with Steve...

[diogenis]

I am not a commercial photographer nor will I ever call myself a "professional" because I only take pictures for myself and don't like to be told what to photograph......After people look at some of my work they shake their head and say why don't I make money by going commercial.....this is not for me.

 

I rarely watch commercial TV and go out of my way not to buy what is advertised.

 

In 2004 I purchased my first digital camera, after reading "Choice" a type of independent consumer advice magazine. The compact camera that had given the best picture quality was the Olympus Camedia C5060. It has a small flip out LCD screen, which was a surprise, as well as an optical viewfinder. It was not long before I fell in love with that little screen and rarely used the optical viewfinder since. Some of my best work was taken with that Japanese 5 megapixel camera, I still have it in my glass cabinet. Nowdays I like the reflex Olympus gear and also have the two small Japanese Leicas (V Lux 20 for my wife and D Lux 5 for my travels, where I don't want to carry too much stuff)

Then, if creativity is your middle name, bite the bullet, and go get a M9.

At least rent one for a week, and then you will find your answers right there in front of you about EVFs and such mumbo jumbo. Also check the other link with the X1

[diogenis]

<3

[Guest stnami]

Imants, sadly this is not the case. Not in our modern societies any way.

Too bad you are of that way thinking, I never figured you for one of the 6 that don't get it.

[diogenis]

Too bad you are of that way thinking, I never figured you for one of the 6 that don't get it.

 

Haha. No I'm not

[AlanG]

Diogenis - All I am getting at is that one can use an EVF and get good results. I do not see them as "junk" nor do I feel that the Japanese are the evil doers that you see them to be. (Talk about insulting someone.) Good for you that you have a high net worth. Did you earn that by taking photos? Are you an especially accomplished amateur photographer? If you haven't achieved much in the field, give me reasons why I should value your opinions. (Assuming I could figure out whatever points you are getting at in the first place.)

 

Also, please keep in mind that I have fairly extensive first hand experience using EVFs and pretty much all types of camera gear. So I know what I like and don't like about each approach.

 

Bill - Yes I'd like to see a much more versatile M system. Haven't I made that clear in all these posts or do I need to make more still? (Although I question this possibility as Leica seems to be having difficulty producing what they already have designed.) The M system as it exists can take excellent quality images but is not very versatile. Is it some kind of crime to express this opinion here?

 

At one time, I had no difficulty buying M and other cameras, mostly used because they didn't cost that much, held their value and I had less concern about using many cameras for specific purposes. But to spend $15,000 or so for a camera and a few lenses that can't fulfill a very large role for me is hard to justify. (Besides live view with a state of the art clip-on EVF, good tethering and repair support would be nice too.) A good friend is a long time Leica shooter. He had two M8s and gave up on them mostly because they kept breaking and he had difficulty getting them repaired quickly, even though he has good connections at Leica. So far he has no interest in the M9 and is considering selling his Leica film cameras and lenses because he is happpy with his Nikon gear. (I don't mean to emply that this is a universal view among pros.)

 

I think many other pros feel this way now despite the fact that they used Leicas in the past. If the camera can be used in more applications, it probably will have more appeal. But I don't think professional photographers is much of a target market for Leica and they seem to be able to sell more than they can make. So they probably are onto a winning formula and their existing market may be happy without seeing significant changes...for a while anyway.

 

As I said before... I look at this as a hypothetical discussion. There is nothing personal about it to me, however some others don't seem to feel this way. I am just trying to express the view of one professional photographer that may help inform those who do not look at cameras from my perspective.

[diogenis]

Diogenis - All I am getting at is that one can use an EVF and get good results. I do not see them as "junk" nor do I feel that the Japanese are the evil doers that you see them to be. (Talk about insulting someone.) Good for you that you have a high net worth. Did you earn that by taking photos?

 

ok I was a bit harsh on you since you really earn your living from photography.

Andy/Jaap, can you edit my post please? (delete it all, just add a <3 sign instead )

[AlanG]

ok I was a bit harsh on you since you really earn your living from photography.

Andy/Jaap, can you edit my post please? (delete it all, just add a <3 sign instead )

 

Fair enough. If I cared to impress in some way, I'd make a bit more effort at it. I just feel my views will carry a little more weight if I establish my bona fides and say that I have used EVF cameras for professional work. I'm doing my best to explain what I personally like and don't like rather than saying, "This is how pros think and you should too." I also assume that there are many pros who like the M9 just as it is who would disagree with me.

 

Specifically, in the case of the Konica Minolta A2 camera, the EVF and ergonomics are quite good. The hangup with that camera is less than ideal AF performance. Plus as an older camera, the sensor tecnology is not so up to date.

 

Leica should at least make a right angle finder for the M. Besides the one for macro. I guess one could adapt a third party version.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[nigelb]

This thread goes on and on.

Summary:

Some do.

Some don't.

Do your own thing.

Use what you like.

Don't pummel people into submission with your opinions.

Over and out......

[adan]

Let me simply add this to the discussion:

 

Here is my portfolio of architectural images. I don't know how they compare to Alan's (well, actually, I think I do, but I won't post a link to his work without permission, since he has chosen not to do so himself. I respect Web privacy)

 

EVERY picture in this portfolio was made with a Leica digital M. Generally with an "oh-so-nasty" accessory finder, since I shot with a 21 or equivalent for most of these. None with an EVF or Live-View - and I never, ever, felt any discomfort, or disability, due to not having that "functionality."

 

I DID use one other accessory, however - the gray one between my ears. If one THINKS about what one is doing, the M optical viewfinder(s) are capable of taking on almost any task.

 

andypiper - PORTFOLIOS - ARCHITECTURE

 

In a slightly different vein, every one of the pictures in THIS portfolio also were also taken with an M8 or M9.

 

andypiper - PORTFOLIOS - STUDIO

 

For some people, "easy" and "versatile" come built into the camera. For others, "easy" and "versatile" come built into the photographer.