WarriorJazz Posted March 19, 2011 Share #1 Posted March 19, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Maybe somebody here can help me figure out what went wrong yesterday when I tried to develop two rolls of Tri-x in D76. This was the second time I used this developer and film combo and the first time went perfect. These last two rolls came out overdeveloped, dark, almost no highlights, bigger grain than the previous roll. What I did: I used 570ml of D76 (1+1) @ 20C. Somebody gave me a tip to reduce the development time by 10% to get better control in postproduction. So I developed it for 8:40min. I made the stock 3 weeks ago and I stored it in a black air and light tight bottle. I noticed that the stock was yellow and if I recollect correctly it was transparent when I made it. So what went wrong? How come the negs were dark and had a lack of highlights? Any clues? I thought you could save the D76 stock for some time did it go bad? Or did I made some error? Regards -Eelco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 19, 2011 Posted March 19, 2011 Hi WarriorJazz, Take a look here D76. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tobey bilek Posted March 19, 2011 Share #2 Posted March 19, 2011 over developed is not possible in 8 minute range. Over exposure in camera is. You are sure you did not use a double dose of D76 and no water and that developer temp was correct? D76 is intolerant of storage in partially full containers air tight or not. Kodak says 6 weeks is OK. That is BS in my experience. What happens is in the first week it gets very active, then dies fairly rapidly. If you used some a week back and then had a partially full container for a week, it had become more active and it over developed the negative. Most people make up a liter or two, then store in small one time use bottles. Open a new one for each film. In full GLASS bottles it works for 6 months perfectly. Then it starts to die slowly. Many plastic bottles leak air thru the plastic. I have done my own tests with a standard studio strobe lighted set up. I usually make a liter and store in 8 four oz bottles. Mix one bottle with water for 1:1 and I get 8 oz developer, enough for one roll in a stainless steel Nikor tank. Xtol will not be so sensitive to this, but is a touch less stable and has other problems namely it does not change color to brown when it goes bad. You just get underdeveloped film. Kodak has told me there is no valid home test for Xtol activity. That includes clip tests and drops on film leaders. I gave up on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 19, 2011 Share #3 Posted March 19, 2011 Never had any problems with Xtol processing hundreds of rolls of film. I put it in 1 litre bottles filled right up to the brim. Sounds more like an exposure problem to me too. If the developer had gone off the negatives would be too thin, not too dense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorJazz Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share #4 Posted March 19, 2011 Sounds more like an exposure problem to me too. If the developer had gone off the negatives would be too thin, not too dense. I hope you are wrong! :-S But the exposures of the first roll was spot on. It's always possible but it would be very strange that the exposure-meter of my new M6 is suddenly off. Just shot a roll and bought some new film and developer. We'll see,... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorJazz Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share #5 Posted March 19, 2011 Thanks for your reply! over developed is not possible in 8 minute range. Over exposure in camera is. You are sure you did not use a double dose of D76 and no water and that developer temp was correct? I'm sure about the mixture and almost sure sure about the temp. I waited a few minutes for the thermometer to adjust and it said 20C spot on. I use no baths or whatever to control the temperature otter that. (should I by the way?) D76 is intolerant of storage in partially full containers air tight or not. Kodak says 6 weeks is OK. That is BS in my experience. What happens is in the first week it gets very active, then dies fairly rapidly. Might be the problem I have had. Does the dev turn yellow when it goes bad? Just bumped into a colleague of mine who used to work analogue and he said that the discoloring of the dev is the clue what went wrong. His theory is that or the bottle was contaminated or air sneaked in and it went bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 19, 2011 Share #6 Posted March 19, 2011 It's always possible but it would be very strange that the exposure-meter of my new M6 is suddenly off. The exposure depends on you setting the ISO correctly. Discoloured developer is usually in indicator that it ought to be thrown away, but as I say, if there was a problem with the developer it should result in the negatives being too light, not too dark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 19, 2011 Share #7 Posted March 19, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) . D76 mixed 1:1 has a 24 hour lifetime. If I may an aside: Rarely I, and a colleague, have had issues with freshly mixed D76 (after letting it cool to room temp.) The film appears to become hyper sensitive to agitation so that the edges are too dark. So now I mix a stock solution and wait 24 hours. This could be a coincidence for each of us, but he shoots as many as 400 rolls (120) per long assignent, processes his own, and has rarely had such issues. (Oh, he just went Nikon digital last month. ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 19, 2011 Share #8 Posted March 19, 2011 D76 mixed 1:1 has a 24 hour lifetime. Gosh only knows what happens when certain components expire. True, but the OP refers to using stock solution - I assume before diluting and using. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 19, 2011 Share #9 Posted March 19, 2011 True, but the OP refers to using stock solution - I assume before diluting and using. Thank you for the correction. I mis-read his post. Stock should be good for four weeks in a sealed (no air) bottle or tank with floating lid. I've never tried to keep it that long. No help from me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted March 19, 2011 Share #10 Posted March 19, 2011 D76 has a slight brown/magenta tinge to it. If it was yellow, it went bad, but then you get thin negs, not dense. Look at the shadow detail of the negs. If there is excessive shadow detail, they are overexposed. If shadows are same on both rolls, but there is excessive density. then overdevelopment is the cause. You can also compare leaders. The activity change of D76 is well documented. It is not just my theory, but like a good scientist, I was able to duplicate others results. Depending on room temp, you should use a 20 deg C (68 F) water bath. At 68 results will not measurably change. The farther ambient is to 20/68, the more results may change. The water bath insures the inside of the tank stays at proper temp. The other thing that may cause a problem is if you put 20/68 deg developer in a tank acclimated to 72 deg room temp. The tank will warm the developer giving too much density. If the room temp was significantly warmer second time, then the tank may be too warm and also the temp will tend to drift up during processing cycle. Agitate the tank the same way. If you under agitated the first time, then did it properly the second, the negs will have more density. NEVER try to control density by reducing agitation. Use time only. Submerge the tank with reels and film, bottle of developer and bottle of water, + fix in a tray of 68 deg water. When developer to be used is at 68 by a dial thermometer, mix the developer and water, stir, and use. It is best if you drop the reel into a tank prefilled with developer, so that means having two, the second to hold the film + reel in the dark momentarily. Not necessary with plastic tanks that fill bottom up. Paper safe or changing bag will also work. Lastly make sure the timer is set properly. I hover the reel over the prefiled tank in the dark with the timer set to 5 extra sec. Start the timer left hand and count to five and drop the reel with the right. The cap is left of the water bath where I touch it before dropping the reel. Cap and begin inversion. Double check the time. At some point, you will thank me for this because you will never screw up developing. The first 30 sec of immersion are critical to smooth even development. Pouring thru the top will not get you this on a stainless tank. You will get away with it 99 times, and then you will try toiling the tank or some other idea, and you get a problem. Again OK for plastic. 9.5 min is the time for a condenser enlarger and #2 paper. Reducing 10% is better for scanning, bad for printing. Try again. Make 6 exposures, cut off 12 inches of film and develop just that. That is all you need. Mark the bench with tape. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted March 19, 2011 Share #11 Posted March 19, 2011 The rebate text of the perfect and the problem film should be identical if it is not then there was a developer problem, yes the time was backed off a bit but that should have only allowed easier scanning. Unless the facut water is close to 20C I'd use a temper bath, and rense, fix & wash in tempered water as well. Temperature is pretty critical as well as storage, for D76. I use Rodinal for a reason - it is ok in near empty bottle with stopper for at lease two decades, in my experience. The grain is not like D76... Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorJazz Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share #12 Posted March 19, 2011 The exposure depends on you setting the ISO correctly. Discoloured developer is usually in indicator that it ought to be thrown away, but as I say, if there was a problem with the developer it should result in the negatives being too light, not too dark. Your right! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorJazz Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share #13 Posted March 19, 2011 The rebate text of the perfect and the problem film should be identical if it is not then there was a developer problem, yes the time was backed off a bit but that should have only allowed easier scanning. Unless the facut water is close to 20C I'd use a temper bath, and rense, fix & wash in tempered water as well. Temperature is pretty critical as well as storage, for D76. I use Rodinal for a reason - it is ok in near empty bottle with stopper for at lease two decades, in my experience. The grain is not like D76... Noel When I read your reply I just thought of something that could have been the problem! I could have used facet water around 20C (maybe a bit more). I just remember that when I filled the tank with water that there was still some warm(er) water in the drains and that It quickly started to flow cold(er) water again. ;-S I was thinking too to grab the bottle of Rodinal I still have and use it from now on. But I'm really trying to learn to use D76 to get a finer grain. Thanks Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorJazz Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share #14 Posted March 19, 2011 Look at the shadow detail of the negs. If there is excessive shadow detail, they are overexposed. If shadows are same on both rolls, but there is excessive density. then overdevelopment is the cause. You can also compare leaders. To see what you just asked I just actually jumped into the bin to find the negs! I found a fed that still look okay to scan: Check out these two scans: Scan 1 Scan 2 Previous roll shot 3 weeks ago and developed with the same stock, film, camera etc Scan So I guess the exposure-meter still is okay. Depending on room temp, you should use a 20 deg C (68 F) water bath. At 68 results will not measurably change. The farther ambient is to 20/68, the more results may change. The water bath insures the inside of the tank stays at proper temp. This was probably what I did wrong (shame) The other thing that may cause a problem is if you put 20/68 deg developer in a tank acclimated to 72 deg room temp. The tank will warm the developer giving too much density. If the room temp was significantly warmer second time, then the tank may be too warm and also the temp will tend to drift up during processing cycle. This will probably be a problem in summer here. So I guess You need a cooling bath with the same temp? ...Try again. Make 6 exposures, cut off 12 inches of film and develop just that. That is all you need. Mark the bench with tape. Thanks for sharing your workflow. I will study it and use it next time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted March 20, 2011 Share #15 Posted March 20, 2011 If your faucet water is constant and not too hot you can use it if you compensate for the temperature by less time as in the Kodak data sheet for D76, if it is variable it is best to temper bath the process and the wash up after. If the temperature is too high ice cubes time... It is best to light table the negs when they are dry, with a loupe. I dont like the grain with Rodinal either... Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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