sean reid and street photography

[sean_reid]

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hi sean,

 

good to hear from you. several lines of thought have been going thru the thread.

 

we've talked a lot about shooting dance pictures. this is not really off topic as the problems with good dance photos the same as street stuff: how to capture a movement/story/arrangement on the fly. someone like lois greenfield does it in the studio. but to me and vic (a major contributer to this discussion) they look contrived. here are pictures i took last week and exhibited in the lobby of the theater:

 

CHICO DANCE THEATRE 2006 Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Just looked at the first set and I think there are some promising pictures within it. Those dancers are creating a world on the stage and, in the strongest pictures, you are creating yet another world within the photograph. I'd be very intentional in how you do that and, once again, look at a lot of paintings for ideas about how you may want to build the figures, fill the space, define the edges, activate the surface...all these things that pictures have to do. The quote from Winogrand, "The photograph is not the thing itself, it is a new fact." really might be relevant to think about right now.

 

I may have suggested this before but make rough prints of the pictures (plain paper is fine) and trace them or try to draw them. Learn how they're working as pictures.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[vic vic]

imants, wayne, sean hi

 

imants - thanks alot for the link.. ya, great to see those people talking.

 

ya... the issue of copying from other great photographers is not so simple. i dont really know what ralph gibson means by syaing that "u will not learn anything"....

ya, if one thinks that by copying he/she may become a good photographer then i do agree - it will not happen. but from the other hand.... the studies of classics is a greaqt way to develop many aspects in one's own photography.

i was not exactly copying ralph gibson (who is my most beloved photographer), or irving penn... but in my first steps as photographer, i was photographing alot, being ispired by their photographs - their vission, their attitude etc. i have learned alot.

personally, that perioud when gibsons and penns photos were sticked in the back of my mind teached me alot about tecnical aspects of photography, artistic issue, capabilities of the photographing medium etc....

and ya, as wayne says, i think many artists do it.. not exactly copying but more inspired at times, especially in the early developemnt stages. and that is true for poets, painters, dancers, football players, actors etc etc....

 

wayne i wil reply later on to your comments got to do something now...........

[smokysun]

hi sean,

 

thanks very much for looking at the pictures and commenting. the hard work for me will be in jan-feb going over the ones i've taken and getting the best from them for an exhibition. i don't know if you saw imants' notes on doing a show, but very helpful. he said the mind space more important than what you put in it. that really has had me thinking!

 

he also pointed out i get better photos with a compact when doing objects, and better photos of people with a larger camera where i can't hide. here are some of the first just posted:

 

still lives Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com

 

ever since getting the fujis i love shooting and printing color. fujichrome was my slide-film of choice in the old days. this justifies people's interest in equipment. it really isn't all the same.

 

speaking of that, have you seen any great galleries of m8 b&w? the issues around it seem to involve only color. too bad leica didn't focus more on sensor technology. the two fujis f30 and 6000fd both have the same sensor. oddly the smaller camera does better at 1600 and 3600 (except in raw) cause fuji tried the up-the-processing trick too! why don't they listen to the photographers?

 

thanks again.

 

wayne

 

ps. any more reviews coming soon?

[sean_reid]

hi sean,

 

speaking of that, have you seen any great galleries of m8 b&w? the issues around it seem to involve only color. too bad leica didn't focus more on sensor technology. the two fujis f30 and 6000fd both have the same sensor. oddly the smaller camera does better at 1600 and 3600 (except in raw) cause fuji tried the up-the-processing trick too! why don't they listen to the photographers?

 

thanks again.

 

wayne

 

ps. any more reviews coming soon?

 

Hi Wayne,

 

I don't know about galleries of M8 pictures in B&W but I've certainly made a lot of B&W pictures with the M8 myself and the camera does beautifully for that work. If it's of interest, take a look at the B&W discussions in the Part 4 review and the 28s review. To my eye, the IR sensitivity is an asset for B&W work because it creates tonal variations within areas of the subject that, to the eye, seem fairly uniform.

 

I will eventually get to write Part Two of the "Street Photography" series which will be called "Photographing Strangers" and will be about the pragmatic, ethical, etc. issues involved in that kind of work. Writing about the M8, of course, has taken center stage recently because it's an important camera and there's lots to understand about it. I'll test the "electronically improved" version of the M8 very soon but then my equipment focus will largely be on lenses (again). The 28s article is almost done and the 21s are next. Thanks for asking.

 

I'll look at the other pictures.

 

Best,

 

Sean

[smokysun]

hi sean,

 

read the m8 number four review and the 28 on b&w. sounds like a beautiful b&w camera to me. frankly, i want the m8 to be an ultimate winner so leica can get on with creating some other cameras from the bottom up. the fast wide-angle compact is the one i'm waiting for and that you suggested long ago. i can understand leica wanting to sell the lenses they've already got, but there's more to be done for us poorer folk.

 

also, everytime i've tested myself against automatic focus, it wins. wearing glasses, growing older...

 

i suppose you read the stuff above about my not being able to sneak pictures of people and get good ones. my face always flushed. i'm psychically withdrawing and my vision dims as a result. i think the important thing is to be able to photograph without guilt! (a recent european poll said the dutch can party the hardest and feel the least guilt of any group on the continent. alas, not dutch.)

 

turns out all these issues surfaced about 1920 when everybody seemed to be taking street shots and upsetting people. personally, if your street shots no good, why do it? find out what you have to do to be good, period, whatever kind of photography it is. and frankly, in public you're probably going to get mostly subway shots, people wearing the mask they wear for others. i'm best at celebrations myself (like your wedding photos).

 

also i'm finding it's pointless for me to take pics of anonymous people, no matter how interesting they look. only certain people like community, actors, dancers. it looks like they have to be pics of what i personally value and emotionally connect with. does that make sense?

 

can't wait for your next street review.

 

wayne

 

ps. the weaknesses of all cameras get quickly known. no sense yelping if you've done your homework, don't you think?

[sean_reid]

"ps. the weaknesses of all cameras get quickly known. no sense yelping if you've done your homework, don't you think?"

 

Can you explain this a bit more?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[smokysun]

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hi sean,

 

well, maybe i mean, 'don't jump the gun'. i've seen so many digital cameras (haven't we all) come out in the past five years which fell short in some dept., which needed a firmware update, which couldn't do everything promised. the m8 simply is no exception. plus, with your review and new firmware, everything but the magenta cast solved (and that with a filter, why not?). yes, it's $5000 and not a $250 fuji. that means it should be twenty times better (and add on $2500 for a leica lens: 30 times better). when starting out, i remember reading you spend a lot more to go up the last 10%. and someone on the fred miranda forum said years ago, 'don't go for the first batch.' so, within a month, the limitations of a camera discussed to death, work-arounds found, and short-comings turned into unique photos. it's simply the way this game is played. and if every review says, you can't use this in lowlight, don't be surprised when it doesn't work the way you wished. i think you would probably advise patience in all things!

 

does that clarify, or merely muddy the waters?

 

wayne

 

ps. i'd hoped the 6000fd would do dance. alas, only a dslr comes up to the mark. for four and a half years i've been dying for an ultra-fast, simple digicam. looks like it's not going to happen.

[Guest stnami]

or four and a half years i've been dying for an ultra-fast, simple digicam. looks like it's not going to happen

. yea well there is a bigger consumer market waiting for a very good canon, sony etc P&S in a camera phone. They would be well in front of the line ahead of our needs

[smokysun]

hi imants,

 

a world with nothing but camera phones, a terrifying thought.

 

yes, i'm being unreasonable. we're a niche market.

 

the main thing about a digicam is size, but more particularly silence. in the classroom, a rehearsal, a meeting, it's essential. a small, totally silent dslr would do the trick for me as well.

 

have you tried the pentax? probably an external viewfinder could be put on and mirror lock-up used. would that solve problem? how loud is the pentax? size?

 

thanks,

wayne

 

ps. you always bring reality into these discussions!

[sean_reid]

hi sean,

 

well, maybe i mean, 'don't jump the gun'. i've seen so many digital cameras (haven't we all) come out in the past five years which fell short in some dept., which needed a firmware update, which couldn't do everything promised. the m8 simply is no exception. plus, with your review and new firmware, everything but the magenta cast solved (and that with a filter, why not?). yes, it's $5000 and not a $250 fuji. that means it should be twenty times better (and add on $2500 for a leica lens: 30 times better). when starting out, i remember reading you spend a lot more to go up the last 10%. and someone on the fred miranda forum said years ago, 'don't go for the first batch.' so, within a month, the limitations of a camera discussed to death, work-arounds found, and short-comings turned into unique photos. it's simply the way this game is played. and if every review says, you can't use this in lowlight, don't be surprised when it doesn't work the way you wished. i think you would probably advise patience in all things!

 

does that clarify, or merely muddy the waters?

 

wayne

 

ps. i'd hoped the 6000fd would do dance. alas, only a dslr comes up to the mark. for four and a half years i've been dying for an ultra-fast, simple digicam. looks like it's not going to happen.

 

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Muddies it so far but I'll reread it again later today.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[smokysun]

hi sean,

 

i guess it just reflects my frustration. like so many, i'd like a digicam for lowlight. last nite i bit the bullet, and ordered a used sigma 20 1.8 for the 20d to get a different kind of dance shot. as long as the music's playing, the mirror slap doesn't matter. and the lens cheaper than trying another camera!

 

i think too, i have a lot of money invested in the d2 and they are starting to pile up used, probably due to the many reports of sensor death in other threads. i've the elpro, even the panasonic wide-angle (could have bought another dslr for the price of the two.) so it's starting to make me gunshy about leica, despite the problems of the m8 being worked out and beautiful photos coming in (the d2 has provided many itself).

 

like many i've been trying to keep my cool and wait it out. keep your reviews coming and the company afloat!! (i feel like the thousands of hits i got on my d-lux 2 shots helped that camera sell out quickly.)

 

wayne

 

ps. has anyone put an external viewfinder on a dslr, put it in mirror lockup and used it as a rangefinder?

 

pss. i just realized a presentation in the final class of the 19th century art history class applies to the difference between the leica and fuji images. two students duplicated the processes of ingres and delacroix. ingres (fantastic draftsman) has sharp lines and lays down a lot of translucent layers, which is how i'd describe the best leica images. they glow from inside. delacroix laid his paint on thick, much more like van gogh, giving an opaque surface, impasto rougher surface for a different kind of beauty. this much closer to the fuji images i'm getting. (in truth, the 20d with the 85 1.2 L lens also gives translucent pictures). different strokes for different folks.

[sean_reid]

hi sean,

 

i guess it just reflects my frustration. like so many, i'd like a digicam for lowlight. last nite i bit the bullet, and ordered a used sigma 20 1.8 for the 20d to get a different kind of dance shot. as long as the music's playing, the mirror slap doesn't matter. and the lens cheaper than trying another camera!

 

i think too, i have a lot of money invested in the d2 and they are starting to pile up used, probably due to the many reports of sensor death in other threads. i've the elpro, even the panasonic wide-angle (could have bought another dslr for the price of the two.) so it's starting to make me gunshy about leica, despite the problems of the m8 being worked out and beautiful photos coming in (the d2 has provided many itself).

 

like many i've been trying to keep my cool and wait it out. keep your reviews coming and the company afloat!! (i feel like the thousands of hits i got on my d-lux 2 shots helped that camera sell out quickly.)

 

wayne

 

ps. has anyone put an external viewfinder on a dslr, put it in mirror lockup and used it as a rangefinder?

 

pss. i just realized a presentation in the final class of the 19th century art history class applies to the difference between the leica and fuji images. two students duplicated the processes of ingres and delacroix. ingres (fantastic draftsman) has sharp lines and lays down a lot of translucent layers, which is how i'd describe the best leica images. they glow from inside. delacroix laid his paint on thick, much more like van gogh, giving an opaque surface, impasto rougher surface for a different kind of beauty. this much closer to the fuji images i'm getting. (in truth, the 20d with the 85 1.2 L lens also gives translucent pictures). different strokes for different folks.

 

My friend Ben Lifson (whom I know you've read) sometimes uses an external finder on his 10D. In fact, for a quieter camera you might want to consider picking up a used 10D for a song. My wife and I still own one as a wedding camera body specifically because its so quiet.

 

Interesting thought about the relationship of Ingres and Delacroix to cameras.

 

BTW, am well into the draft of the sequel to the "SP" article which is called "Photographing Strangers".

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[smokysun]

hi sean,

 

thanks for the tip on the 10d. i'll look into it. really cheap now. (my 20d has dropped from 1200 to 600. wow.)

 

i know you've put a lot of thought into the coming sequel. we've been discussing it for about a year now.

 

congratulations on the first year of reviews. looking at them the other day i'm a bit jealous. first time subscribers will get an incredible feast. and for lens reviews, you're the only game on the web. everybody else seems to have abandoned them. (i'll let you know what i think of the coming sigma.)

 

wayne

[sean_reid]

One can get a good 10D for about $300 and it's a very useable camera and one of the quietest SLRs I've ever heard.

 

Thanks for the comments on the site.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[smokysun]

hi sean,

 

dp review has a very interesting sound comparison, for anyone interested:

 

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS20D/Samples/20d_d70_10d.mp3

 

you can really hear the difference!

 

i'll see if i can find a $300 one.

 

thanks,

 

wayne

[smokysun]

hi imants, sean, vic,

 

as the new year and the show approaches, i'm getting more anxious (of course).

 

yes, imants, i'm looking for the mental space. spent the evening turning some formerly unused pics into b&w. i think you're right, b&w has to be a large part of the show. even shooting in color i seem to be taking b&w pictures. odd, no?

 

 

and, vic, i've been trying out with pics in which i got closer and more involved in the action. trying some crops. let me know if you think this is working.

 

and sean, i am beginning to create my own dance from the pictures i've taken. i do seem to get a lot more of what i want in b&w. maybe the eros vs. death (white vs black) demands it. just the way i see the world.

 

here's a series of four from the 'goya' dance.

 

wayne

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[smokysun]

hi sean,

 

just read your article on 'photographing strangers'. you took the issue head-on and i think it will provide help and answers.

 

especially interesting since i went on a walkabout this afternoon with the fuji 6000fd. i followed the advice of johnny stiletto, 'shooting from the hip' and not looking thru the viewfinder or at the lcd at all. this is a technique i've found very difficult with a compact, since they float so easily in space. this larger size more anchored, plus the larger barrel.

 

shot mostly in aperture priority, tho i realized i need to go to shutter to stop camera shake, etc. 100 iso. -1 ev. spot metering (this camera must have a built-in polarizer. i've tried using one - 58mm thread - but it made things weird.) didn't do raw, but it has raw, 3 seconds to write. and so on. see the dp review mentioned earlier. shooting darker makes the pics straight out in daylight better, but should be shot lighter for post-processing. definitely a camera to be compared with the v-1 (less than half the price). also, i used the fujichrome setting to make it more like fuji slide film.

 

fuji 6000fd shots from the hip, straight from the camera (resized) Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com

 

when i got home, i felt bored shooting this way. but despite hcb, who said we don't see from the navel, i do think shooting as if with a rolleiflex makes for a lot of interesting angles.

 

thanks again for your article. shooting blindly, i felt a lot less self-conscious on the street, as though giving up control made me feel less like i was aiming a deadly weapon at people.

 

wayne

 

ps. just not happy with the dance pics yet, tho i've thousands. i've decided to do strictly a theater show (and give our theater a boost at the same time).

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[sean_reid]

hi sean,

 

just read your article on 'photographing strangers'. you took the issue head-on and i think it will provide help and answers.

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Thanks, glad to hear that. The most difficult thing about shooting without looking through the finder is developing a physical sense of how the lens will see and where the edges will fall. That's hard but not impossible given enough practice. Essentially, one can get to a point where he can "see through the finder" in his head. I'll take a look at the new pics tomorrow.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[smokysun]

thanks, sean,

 

i fear you won't find any real progress in the photos. after reading your article, after this shooting, i have to face the fact: i do better when i interact with the subjects. this must be my theater experience. i love to direct and am practiced at getting actors involved with each other and now, perhaps, the camera.

 

photographers like john deakin and august sandor seem to have been the same. the pictures came to life when they, through the interaction, came alive themselves.

 

also, all my training has been in getting people to act natural onstage, involved with what they are doing and with each other. at least i'm more satisfied after taking such pictures. i think when i'm the fly on the wall, i fall into merely formal organization, something vic pointed out.

 

my window and object shots an example of directing, as well. this is something imants pointed out. i create little dramas.

 

this doesn't really make me happy to know! i'm lazy and often like being solitary. that combination means i don't direct nearly as much as i'd like to, in life and onstage.

 

let me know if you'd confirm or deny this. it's much like when you took your irish pics, except i do better being proactive. i'm looking at a book by michael grecco. he likes wandering strange places, finding interesting people, and asking them to pose. (he's used to celebrities and actors.) he has them do very dramatic things related to what they do.

 

Amazon.com: Lighting and the Dramatic Portrait: Books: Michael Grecco

 

he takes lights etc. does a kind of studio shot in the street. very interesting and fun to read. his setups usually very simple.

 

hope all's well. really got a lot from the 'photography strangers' article. thanks again.

 

wayne

 

ps. i'm also learning a lot of technical stuff in the examinations of the m8. for my purposes the flaws proving very valuable info! isn't that ironic? many have said, 'i've learned more from my failures than my successes.' figuring out the the m8 is a world-wide project.

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[vic vic]

hi wayne imants and sean

 

wayne, ya the recemt set of dance photo looks good. they all are in the style of the same photo that remindds goyas painting. especially love the 2nd and the 4th.

but still - croping is not getting closer. closer is when u hear them breathing :-))))) closer is SPACE and STAGE... different perception of space through photograph. again, assuming that space is important to what u do, u have to work with normal lenses and dow to widers. longs and crops are not the solution for it.

 

also.. u and imants talk all the time about trying some other cameras, and which is better for this or for that.

im not sure it is good for u as photographer... let me put some points as something u may want to think about and concider for yourself...

choose no more than two cameras to work with and play with for the first stage... no matter what kind of photography u do, it is extrimly important that the camera will become a second nature to u... a tools for expression, not a tool to take photos. with your cameras that will be "the extension of yoru body" (i mean it seriously), u will be able to impliment your ideas, as well as to make better reactions and impulsive work. if u dont have a camera that goes with u in this flow, u will not be able to do so on regular basis.

i dont have many cameras, and i dont want to have at all. i might be snob, but it is more about my comfort with the tools. swmall camera - i only love the leica m. medium - the rollei camera (rolleiflex80 and rollei6008) and big cameras i love linhof (master tech). give me another camera, doesnt metter how good it is, i dont even want to try it. as a result.... im totally free in my rections, i can use my intuitions, i can sense much better what happens around me, and there are no barriers between what i have in my mind and my impulses and the actual photo-making.

 

when a camera will be a second nature to u, then u will stop to think about it, and u will record on the film or sensor what u had in your mind (wether u direct it or snap it).

camera is very important thing for photographer... technical aspects of camera are important issue of course, but more important in my opinion is your comfort with the camera... the comfort - so that it will not be a barrier between your mind and your action as photographer. the simpler the camera, the more liberating it is....

 

about directing or spontanious....

i clearly understand what u say... i love both those methods so to speack.. and feel comfort with both of them.

but... every one has its virtues... if your virtue is to direct, then why not go with it. u can always make snapshot-like photos... but if u already have such a developed thing like ability to direct (with everything envolved in it) etc, then it might be very rewarding for u as photographer too. step after step, u may develop more and more independent attitude to photography too. maybe it will be better and eassier to u to see what goods u can take from your virtues as director, and what other new virtues u can get as a photographer...