If the lenses of the X1 aren't produced in Germany, what's MADE in GERMANY?

[prk60091]

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Four quick points from 5 quick minutes of research;

 

- Leica M Brochure page 83 next to photo of the X1: "Leica Camera is a name that stands for the best in German precision engineering and craftsmanship"

 

- Same brochure page 21: "Matchless manufacturing precision and painstaking assembly".

 

- X1 brochure page 12 - "The X1 is the direct beneficiary of 100-plus years of German engineering and experience".

 

- The "Made in Germany" stamp on every camera.

 

Some of the very early x1posts in this forum discussed ad nauseum this subject. Under EU laws (and I am a retired US attorney so I may be wrong) as long as a substantial amount of the manufacture process is in Germany the item is entitled by EU law to be labelled Made in Germany.

 

If you read each item you mention a. All statements are true and b. None say every bit of the camera was made in Germany.

 

It sounds to e you are trying to pick a fight with leica.

[phancj]

Whats so great about German made anyway, and by that I mean at this present moment, not historical?

 

I purchase high power laser equipment (class 4 lasers) for my business, and can tell you for certain that even the most prominent manufacturers can be damn sloppy. Do not get me wrong, they are VERY competent with the laser source, but the integration, galvo, controller, software, customization, etc,etc SUCKS BIG TIME compared to the kind of integration we do here in Asia.

 

If anything, I would like Leica to be involved in making/certifying bought lenses from OEM suppliers, build a great image processing engine (the Maestro appears great, and hopefully that technology filters and scales down to the Ms and future Xs) and leave the other components to more competent OEM makers.

 

I think the term made in germany, or made in japan in this day and age automatically implies only point of final assembly, and IMO an important one as manufacturer is in essence putting their name and reputation on the line, since you cannot then point fingers at OEM manufacturers when things go wrong.

 

Take the term "Made in Germany" not literally, but the fact that Leica is actually involved in the process instead of just putting a badge on the product which incidentally from what I know happens to nikon, canon and other manufacturers particularly with P&S cameras.

 

My two cents, FWIW.

 

CJ

[pop]

Anyone who thinks that "made in X" means to say that the product with all constituents were exclusively produced, assembled, finished and packed in X probably believes that a garment made of "pure wool" consists of nothing but wool.

 

The meanings of those phrases are all strictly regulated both nationally and internationally. Customers' rights organisations have fought in vain to make manufacturers use phrases which actually mean what they appear to say.

 

It's not Leica. It's all over the place.

[phancj]

If companies cannot use advertising fluff then that'll be the end of product ads, picture a TV commercial:

 

"The M9 is 15% really made in Germany, mostly the final assembly. Sensor is from the states (kodak), magnesium alloy frame material from china, casted in mexico, shutter in Taipei, screws in china, leatherette from thailand, software a 40/60 joint development both Chennai India and Moscow Russia, etc,etc....."

 

Who the hell wants to place this million dollar ad??!!

 

Worst still the disclaimer will be longer:

 

"From preliminary testing, 2% suffered sesnor glass cracking, 05% leatherette peeling, vertical lines in 0.8% of sensors, RF alignment off in 4.2% of shipped units, etc, etc...."

 

The A&P divisions of virtually the whole world has to be scrapped, life will not be as colorful and nice as we know it and sales people ought to be like robots speaking just technical specs but NOTHING ELSE to avoid criminal or civil liability for wrongful misrepresentation....the end of the world as I know it haha....

 

SO....I like A&P bluff and hyped products, if it leads to subsequent disappointment so be it...the other alternative is not tenable and I do not wish to live in such a world, maybe its just me.....

[andybarton]

Look at the price of a Leica lens. A 24mm Elmarit-M for example. That -is- hand made in Germany.

 

Then look at the price of an X1.

 

The lenses are completely different, but it must be obvious that they are not made in the same way.

[phancj]

Irregardless of price parts of it can still be made elsewhere particularly non-glass portion...

 

Also, even if made in GErmany, may not be the Leica factory. May well be ANOTHER lens company...so we'll never know will we??!!

 

CJ

[andybarton]

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The lens on an X1 is not made anywhere in Germany.

[phancj]

It doesnt matter (or shouldnt matter) as long as it is a great lens. The X1 has a fine lens.

 

Also, M-lenses are made for FF use, the one in X1 APS-C. Thats a difference there too. For Nikons and Canon dedicated APS-C lenses are also less expensive than their FF counterparts, so thats not a reflection on compromise of quality. It just costs more to make FF lenses.

 

Cosina has produced for zeiss, so whats the big deal?

 

I was talking about the M-lenses you mentioned. May be totally/partially made in Germany. And in Germany maybe not the Leica factory. Hardly surprising this day and age.

 

CJ

[andybarton]

I agree that it doesn't matter, but M lenses are really made in Germany. I've seen them being made. The metal parts are made in a sister factory.

 

The glass blanks -might- be imported, but the grinding and polishing and assembly is all done in Solms.

 

If you are ever over in Europe you should take a couple of days to visit the factory. It's enlightening.

 

The X1 lens could well be made in the sane factory as the Nikon APS-C lenses. (that's an educated guess)

[phancj]

I would love to visit the Leica factory, and am sure it will be enlightening...

 

I am certain Leica does make lenses in Solms, but to what extent no one but leica knows. They may be making a certain portion of production there, and subcontract to competent OEM makers for the rest. Absolutely nothing wrong and perfectly acceptable.

 

The X1 lens sure perform a lot better than my Nikon APS_C lenses, which have been in the dry box for donkey years..haha..

 

I do think we need not be anal where the thing is made, but that it should perform as it should or better. Whats the point of German made if it's faulty??!!

 

CJ

[hunz]

It says:

 

LEICA CAMERA

 

GERMANY

 

on the back of the X1.

 

Interestingly the M9 says:

 

LEICA CAMERA MADE IN GERMANY

 

hmmm.. yeah.. read into it what you may...

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[phancj]

Hunz,

 

I dunno if you own the X1, it says "MADE IN GERMANY: at the bottom plate.....

 

Altho I know it isnt all made there...neither the M9.

 

Also, many japanese products have "Made in japan" plastered on them...would you be pissed if many parts are from china? I sure hope not as there'll be not many things left to buy then...

 

More often than not, "Made in..." refers to FINAL POINT OF ASSEMBLY.

 

 

CJ

[hunz]

thanks CJ.

 

so does that mean just the baseplate is made in germany? LOL

 

i remember a case in the UK, with clothing labels using MADE IN ITALY, where in fact the garments were made elsewhere, just the LABEL was actually 'Made in Italy'.

 

False advertising, fraud? -- its open to conjecture

[phancj]

thanks CJ.

 

so does that mean just the baseplate is made in germany? LOL

 

i remember a case in the UK, with clothing labels using MADE IN ITALY, where in fact the garments were made elsewhere, just the LABEL was actually 'Made in Italy'.

 

False advertising, fraud? -- its open to conjecture

 

No hunz.

 

It depends on prevailing local laws, but for something to be advertised as "Made in" certain criteria need be fulfilled.

 

I have a law degree albeit not one in the EU so I am not certain of the exact criteria. Usually it is the point of final assembly and there's really no way to ascertain the exact percentage of manufacture in the purported "Made in place". Also, manufacturers can easily claim higher % of manufacture to fulfill the requisite criteria no one knows.

 

I do not think you can make the label in Italy and claim whole garment to be made there, that should run afoul of the law in most countries, except maybe...eh I shouldnt go there!

 

As for the X1 I think it's a great photographic tool assembled in Germany, maybe not even in leica factory, but a german factory. Come to think of it maybe a sweatshop manned by non-germans!

 

If really given a chance to decide I would have wanted my X1 to be assembled by two teenagers with a dream in their backyard, like the apple founders...inspiring stuff haha!

 

CJ

[hunz]

the EU has stricter laws protecting consumers that 'other' continents.

 

any how, call it what you may but I'd say a percentage of X1 owners would be pissed to find out their camera and lens was NOT made in Germany. i'm just saying, ya know

[phancj]

No Hunz, I think the majority of X1 owners will be pissed if the photos that come out of the X1 looks like s*&t.

 

CJ

[pop]

... I'd say a percentage of X1 owners would be pissed to find out their camera and lens was NOT made in Germany...

 

With all due respect: I don't see how that statement might be useful at all. Of course anyone would be pissed to find he has been lied to. But that'd be only a useful statement if there was cause for concern.

 

Otherwise, I could state here with confidence that "a percentage of X1 owners would be pissed to find out that their camera send all pictures they take to the KGB".

[hunz]

read up on EU law and then we can talk about it some more. rather than spouting hypothetical statements

[hunz]

With all due respect: I don't see how that statement might be useful at all. Of course anyone would be pissed to find he has been lied to. But that'd be only a useful statement if there was cause for concern.

 

Otherwise, I could state here with confidence that "a percentage of X1 owners would be pissed to find out that their camera send all pictures they take to the KGB".

 

so you seriously think it is not misleading?

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Hallo,

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[phancj]

Gosh Hunz, get a grip...

 

If EVERYTHING in the M9/X1 is made in Leica's factory I dread to think how much these cameras will cost...

 

If in fact what you are saying is true then I suppose leica has landed itself in deep soup and will be subject to prosecution but I am not holding my breath for that....what leica is doing in terms of advertising and marketing is being done by every single company known to man and to different degrees, often much worse.

 

BTW, do you think having bought the cologne you will land the gal of your dreams?

 

CJ