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[donalrey]

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Well maybe in NJ.

 

I finally sent out my X1 for repair. Originally, I was having problem with the scroll wheel being extremely sensitive and I was going to wait it out until the new firmware releases in hoping it would fix that problem. But yesterday, for some strange reason the pop up flash won't lock down. It would pop up with the slightest touch.

 

I guess I'm just ranting but with a $2000 price tag you would think Leica would have better quality control. I had a D-Lux 3 before and that thing was built like a tank. I dropped it numerous of times, one time it fell out of my pocket while I was riding my bike onto concrete and into a puddle of water and it still worked like a charm. I'm extremely dissapointed with the Leica X1 (Although, don't get me wrong I still love the camera).

 

The dealer said it would take at least 5 weeks for the repair! That will leave me without a camera for the holidays.

[h00ligan]

Mine arrived to them yesterday afternoon, their time. I will be very interested to see how long each step of the process takes.

 

I agree it stinks I probably won't have it for the holidays, fortunately it is not my only camera..just the one I usually use at family events.

[gar1013]

I wouldn't assume that Leica has bad quality control from this incident. The key to any QC system is developing a proper balance of products that fail QC when there's a problem with the product, defective products that slip through, and non-defective products that fail QC.

 

The cost of the X1 would probably be 5 or 10 times higher if you had QC systems that prevented a single defective unit from leaving the factory. Quality control isn't really about eliminating defects, but reducing the number of defects to an acceptable level. It's also about eliminating false fails -- the last thing any company wants to do is reject a product that is actually acceptable. To add further complication, some methods of testing would actually result in shortening the lifespan of the product.

 

Naturally, acceptable level is a subjective measure, and it totally sucks when you end up with the defective product. By the same token, you ended up with a defective product because the camera costs $2k, not in spite of the fact that the camera costs $2k.

[bad robot]

My X1 had to go back for repair after dropping it denting the top plate and flash. It took about 2 weeks to be returned, the dials appeared to have been made tighter after the repair.

[gar1013]

My X1 had to go back for repair after dropping it denting the top plate and flash. It took about 2 weeks to be returned, the dials appeared to have been made tighter after the repair.

 

So how much did they charge you for the repair? Just want to be prepared in case I do the same thing.

 

Nice to see that they did a bit of a tune up for you at the same time.

[h00ligan]

Gar, what do you imagine leica's profit is per camera. I've seen several posts from you that make me think it is farrrrr different than my thoughts. At what price do you think they distribute to dealers?$1k $1500 $750? W can use euros if you prefer.

[ChiILX1]

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The dealer said it would take at least 5 weeks for the repair! That will leave me without a camera for the holidays.

 

I had a repair once on mine. I called Leica and they were super nice. I asked if it could be back to me by Tuesday (I called on a thursday, 2 weeks after I had mailed it). She said "Do you want it in your hands on Tuesday? and I said yes I had a shoot I needed it for. She said "no problem I will make it happen." sure enough 10:30 am on Tuesday I got my X1 back it had been sent overnight at their expense.

 

Moral of the story- call and be nice and they seem eager to please! Super nice people.

[gar1013]

Gar, what do you imagine leica's profit is per camera. I've seen several posts from you that make me think it is farrrrr different than my thoughts. At what price do you think they distribute to dealers?$1k $1500 $750? W can use euros if you prefer.

 

Trying to decipher the financial statements of a German company can be an exercise in futility. The accounting rules are such that German companies have the ability to massage and manipulate earnings in a way that no US company would be able to do ("secret reserves" for example).

 

There's also the issue of what overhead costs they assign to each unit sold, etc.

 

Certainly the X1 is a profitable camera for the company. At the same time, German workers are very expensive and right-sizing doesn't happen as easily as it does in the US.

 

Dealer cost is also a very tricky item -- there are also sorts of different levers that can be pulled in terms of incentives, allowances...and then there's unit allocations, etc.

 

The bigger issue here is the cost of QC as a whole. Make no mistake: every product has a target level of defects. No company truly has a zero defect target, as the costs involved would be excessive.

[gar1013]

I had a repair once on mine. I called Leica and they were super nice. I asked if it could be back to me by Tuesday (I called on a thursday, 2 weeks after I had mailed it). She said "Do you want it in your hands on Tuesday? and I said yes I had a shoot I needed it for. She said "no problem I will make it happen." sure enough 10:30 am on Tuesday I got my X1 back it had been sent overnight at their expense.

 

Moral of the story- call and be nice and they seem eager to please! Super nice people.

 

Unlike super stringent QC, good customer service is very cheap from the perspective of it being an investment. LL Bean probably demonstrated it best when their first product run that sold was 100% defective. They made it right, and in doing so established a standard for customer service that earned them a wonderful following.

[h00ligan]

Great, if redundant, info not an answer Gar. What do YOU think leica gets per camera?

[grober]

The dealer said it would take at least 5 weeks for the repair! That will leave me without a camera for the holidays.

 

Reminds me of my experience with the very early production M8 bodies in the USA. We had to ship our M8s back to Solms over Christmas so they could fix a significant problem that should have been remedied before delivery. Not a good start to my personal M8 experience . . . which I no longer own.

 

-g

[gar1013]

Great, if redundant, info not an answer Gar. What do YOU think leica gets per camera?

 

There is no way to know, so why speculate on the exact dollar figure. It's more than $1 and it's less than $1995, so I've bracketed it for you.

[JeTexas]

I can't find a teardown for a camera, but here's one on the iPhone and the Nokia N8 dated October 2010.

 

Nokia N8 Smart Phone Matches iPhone 4 Costs, iSuppli Teardown Reveals

 

You can drop half those components out of the price of a camera since it doesn't have wi-fi, bluetooth, a large SD drive, etc. However, you'd have to up the prices of all components due to needing larger, higher-quality sensors, perfectly ground lenses, and smaller production runs in a more expensive country.

 

I'd be surprised if component and labor costs weren't close to $1,000. Then you have to add development costs onto that.

[h00ligan]

The cost of the X1 would probably be 5 or 10 times higher if you had QC systems that prevented a single defective unit from leaving the factory. Quality control isn't really about eliminating defects, but reducing the number of defects to an acceptable level. It's also about eliminating false fails -- the last thing any company wants to do is reject a product that is actually acceptable. To add further complication, some methods of testing would actually result in shortening the lifespan of the product.

 

Naturally, acceptable level is a subjective measure, and it totally sucks when you end up with the defective product. By the same token, you ended up with a defective product because the camera costs $2k, not in spite of the fact that the camera costs $2k.

 

So Gar based on your last flippant response we can draw as fact your previous comment has no merit as it's not based on even a remote guess, let alone any concrete fact.

 

To the op, leica has had my camera three days with even a received notice through email..it's not looking good time wise, maybe I'll be surprised. They apparently do all communication through snail mail..the fact that's possible tells me the minimum time for repair will be a month, as the rep mentioned multiple mails (2-3 iirc)

[h00ligan]

Je, I think it would be at least 25% lower..maybe closer to $500 in component and an assigned value of $250 per unit for r/d for the first 10-15k units or so..I'd guess leica are making about $650-850 per x1 with resellers making $350-500.

 

Remember, leica are using old components which drop in cost very fast, the expense is lens design I'd guess. I would be shocked to find out per unit the x1 cost more than a MacBook pro to produce...and I think I've been very generous with my guess..it may be much much less amortized over say 25-30k cameras.

[JeTexas]

Je, I think it would be at least 25% lower..maybe closer to $500 in component and an assigned value of $250 per unit for r/d for the first 10-15k units or so..I'd guess leica are making about $650-850 per x1 with resellers making $350-500.

 

Remember, leica are using old components which drop in cost very fast, the expense is lens design I'd guess. I would be shocked to find out per unit the x1 cost more than a MacBook pro to produce...and I think I've been very generous with my guess..it may be much much less amortized over say 25-30k cameras.

 

 

It's so hard to say. I probably estimated high, but Leica production runs are soooo much smaller than iPhone runs, and while it costs $9 labor in China to assemble an iPhone, it's got to cost at least $100 in Germany. It's surprising what some things really cost. These four caught me off guard.

 

What Your Gadget Really Costs: Apple - BusinessWeek

 

What Your Gadget Really Costs: Microsoft - BusinessWeek

 

What Your Gadget Really Costs: Sony - BusinessWeek

 

What Your Gadget Really Costs: Apple - BusinessWeek

[Guest badbob]

I wouldn't assume that Leica has bad quality control from this incident. The key to any QC system is developing a proper balance of products that fail QC when there's a problem with the product, defective products that slip through, and non-defective products that fail QC.

The cost of the X1 would probably be 5 or 10 times higher if you had QC systems that prevented a single defective unit from leaving the factory. Quality control isn't really about eliminating defects, but reducing the number of defects to an acceptable level. It's also about eliminating false fails -- the last thing any company wants to do is reject a product that is actually acceptable. To add further complication, some methods of testing would actually result in shortening the lifespan of the product.

Naturally, acceptable level is a subjective measure, and it totally sucks when you end up with the defective product. By the same token, you ended up with a defective product because the camera costs $2k, not in spite of the fact that the camera costs $2k.

 

Actually there are large variations in the failure rate of commercial products. I've been through quite a few HP products in the days when their proprietary products were legendary for quality, and yet I had at least a 40 percent failure rate within three or four months. I've had 70 percent failure rates on small handheld Sony products and Sony Vaio computers. I've had no failures on Apple products - two computers and an iPad and a dozen or so iPods.

 

My Leica X1 has been perfect since March this year, knock on wood. But I wonder if the X1 failure rate is due to people using it a lot - like 100-200 shots per day or more, or bouncing the camera around where it gets shaken a lot. That may be a clue to Leica's QC for the X1 - they may not have designed it for heavy use.

[JeTexas]

But I wonder if the X1 failure rate is due to people using it a lot - like 100-200 shots per day or more, or bouncing the camera around where it gets shaken a lot. That may be a clue to Leica's QC for the X1 - they may not have designed it for heavy use.

 

I highly doubt that. Generally when companies test products, they have to simulate years of use in just a few days. That means non-stop shutter action for hours upon hours at a time.

 

I found that when Porsche rolled out the 996, the parts that failed the most were actually the seals that dried out from owners buying the cars and never driving them. That's something you can't really test.

[h00ligan]

Je,

 

I looked at the apple one, being in it that's about what I was thinking..the offset labour costs are more than countered by the older components I'd think..I'm going to look at the other articles. Thanks.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[thomsva]

My X1 had to go back for repair after dropping it denting the top plate and flash.

 

The top plate of my X1 has also been slightly deformed around the flash unit. The hole for the flash isn't 100% circular any more. I haven't dropped the camera but there can have been something pressing against it in the bag, but certainly no big hits. Imho the top plate should be made much stronger.