DL4 to X1 to DL5?

[FenderP]

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I bought a DL4 a few years back and have had the X1 pretty much since it came out. The DL4 is with someone else now and I've been using the X1 exclusively. It's made me a better photographer and I love its IQ, but I find myself missing a few things - namely a bit of zoom, better macro capability, and a bit of stabilization (although the handling of the X1 is good and having the right settings IS really is a bit of a non factor, but not a complete non factor on the X1).

 

So I find myself in the position of wondering if the X1 - for all the IQ, natural colors, DNG out of the camera, and great low light capabilities - is the right camera for me. I am not an interchangeable lens guy and I don't need a million cameras. I'd rather have one.

 

I had the opportunity to buy a DL5 for a good price, so I'm going to see if maybe it's right and if I'll miss the X1's IQ. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. Maybe the X1 will be the camera that sticks it out.

 

Has anyone else had the same issues?

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[h00ligan]

Well, my x1 was supposed to be a companion to my dslr...instead I find my dslr is a companion to my x1. MOST of the time the focal range suits me...and I don't need faster. Sometimes it is frustrating. I thought that maybe I am was a mistake by using the x1 so much because I am learning and it is technologically behind...you know that I should be spending time also mastering the much more complicated dslr.

 

So I tried to say, alright, I am going to take the dslr around with me this week, even with a prime 30/1.4. I've tried to 'enforce that habit' a couple of times but when I go to leave the house I have cell phone, invisalign holder, portable toothbrush and floss, prescription sunglasses and regular glasses, keys, wallet, etc and I realize...I can chuck the x1 in the crumplier 3 million dollar home with all of that stuff and have a very small light shoulder bag.

 

The next thought is, maybe I should go even smaller, get some zoom, have the video capabilities, and go cheaper. IS never enters the picture for me because the iso difference and the fact I shoot moving subjects a lot the x1 counters that. So I think about what I would get in this $700 'pocket cam' instead of a $2000 jacket pocket/ small bag cam and I realize, I shoot wide open more often than any other aperture, I cant get that with a small sensor cam. I think about the iq and iso performance of the x1 which is impressive and realize I have too much stuff right now (due to invisalign) not to carry a bag of some sort...

 

So my thought process ends with..it's not much smaller, it's not faster, it has worse iq, limited dof control, the raw headroom is nowhere near as good, dynamic range isn't good, noise takes much more processing to deal with. The only thing I am not getting with the x1 over the dl5 is zoom. Most of the time I don't need it, and I'm used to primes because they have been my go to lenses even on the dslr since the price vs iq is so much better than zooms. If I really think I will need zoom then I am going to 'take photos' not just going out and capturing what clicks with me, so the dslr is the logical choice with a good walk around zoom.

 

At the end of the day, I've thought about it..but for all the reasons above for now this is my conclusion...wouldn't be happy. I think if I shot a lot of good light landscapes, architecture, etc, that the dl5 would be a great choice.

 

Sorry for the long post, I sympathize with your curiosity...just trying to offer some thoughts.

[FenderP]

Well, my x1 was supposed to be a companion to my dslr...instead I find my dslr is a companion to my x1. MOST of the time the focal range suits me...and I don't need faster. Sometimes it is frustrating. I thought that maybe I am was a mistake by using the x1 so much because I am learning and it is technologically behind...you know that I should be spending time also mastering the much more complicated dslr.

 

So I tried to say, alright, I am going to take the dslr around with me this week, even with a prime 30/1.4. I've tried to 'enforce that habit' a couple of times but when I go to leave the house I have cell phone, invisalign holder, portable toothbrush and floss, prescription sunglasses and regular glasses, keys, wallet, etc and I realize...I can chuck the x1 in the crumplier 3 million dollar home with all of that stuff and have a very small light shoulder bag.

 

The next thought is, maybe I should go even smaller, get some zoom, have the video capabilities, and go cheaper. IS never enters the picture for me because the iso difference and the fact I shoot moving subjects a lot the x1 counters that. So I think about what I would get in this $700 'pocket cam' instead of a $2000 jacket pocket/ small bag cam and I realize, I shoot wide open more often than any other aperture, I cant get that with a small sensor cam. I think about the iq and iso performance of the x1 which is impressive and realize I have too much stuff right now (due to invisalign) not to carry a bag of some sort...

 

So my thought process ends with..it's not much smaller, it's not faster, it has worse iq, limited dof control, the raw headroom is nowhere near as good, dynamic range isn't good, noise takes much more processing to deal with. The only thing I am not getting with the x1 over the dl5 is zoom. Most of the time I don't need it, and I'm used to primes because they have been my go to lenses even on the dslr since the price vs iq is so much better than zooms. If I really think I will need zoom then I am going to 'take photos' not just going out and capturing what clicks with me, so the dslr is the logical choice with a good walk around zoom.

 

At the end of the day, I've thought about it..but for all the reasons above for now this is my conclusion...wouldn't be happy. I think if I shot a lot of good light landscapes, architecture, etc, that the dl5 would be a great choice.

 

Sorry for the long post, I sympathize with your curiosity...just trying to offer some thoughts.

 

All excellent throughts and the type of response I was looking for. I'll have to see when I get the DL5 in my hands if what you type above really is the case for me and I still want to only grab the X1.

[h00ligan]

Please do post back with your thoughts, I'll be interested to read them!

[FenderP]

Will do!

[Ecaton]

How about simply buying a LX5 for some USD 450 to give it a try. It's a great small sensor camera, but not a replacement for a X1. The difference in IQ is simply too significant.

I have both and they complement one another nicely for my needs.

Had I still one of the smaller mfts with kit zoom (GF1 or EP1) I might be tempted to replace them with the LX5 or its Leica twin. Not that these two small sensor cameras outperform mft, but they are reasonably close and could be considered as a more pocketable alternative.

[FenderP]

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How about simply buying a LX5 for some USD 450 to give it a try. It's a great small sensor camera, but not a replacement for a X1. The difference in IQ is simply too significant.

I have both and they complement one another nicely for my needs.

Had I still one of the smaller mfts with kit zoom (GF1 or EP1) I might be tempted to replace them with the LX5 or its Leica twin. Not that these two small sensor cameras outperform mft, but they are reasonably close and could be considered as a more pocketable alternative.

 

DL5 is already on its way. I could have also bought the LX5, but went with the DL mainly because I prefer its more minimalistic look. The same was true when I got the DL4 over the LX3 a few years back.

 

The whole point is not to have two cameras. I'm not taking two on vacation, etc. At the end of the day I only really want and need one.

 

If Sony had a NEX version that wasn't interchangeable lenses with that sensor that would have been considered ... but alas.

[h00ligan]

But you already have a better version of that cam in the x1... Or do

You mean if they attached a zoom? Surely a superzoom with ASPC can't be far off. But I doubt a superzoom lens would deliver decent results or be small.

[FenderP]

But you already have a better version of that cam in the x1... Or do

You mean if they attached a zoom? Surely a superzoom with ASPC can't be far off. But I doubt a superzoom lens would deliver decent results or be small.

 

4x on the DL5 is hardly a superzoom 4x is just fine and actually addresses an issue I had with the DL4; the zoom was useless in some cases. I'm not looking for a 10x, 16x zoom here.

 

One of the things I do take pictures of (among others) is that I actually like to take some close up pictures of things like food, which the X1 really doesn't excel at. I can make it work somewhat with a bit of difficulty. This is where the otherwise excellent prime and the X1 implementation fails me. Doing MF even down to the smallest possible focus isn't quite right, and you get a lot of bokeh which isn't always the intent.

 

It also makes it hard to do things like take pictures of items for eBay.

 

Zooming and cropping in LR or PS isn't really a workable solution in some of these cases.

[h00ligan]

True, I wasn't stating the dl5 was a superzoom. I was just thinking aloud that possibly an ASPC superzoom could come. But it would be pointless as it would be huge.

 

The issue with I think any size camera that tries to incorporate a 4x zoom with ASPC even if it is fixed , it wouldn't save much space. I don't think a nex with the nex kit zoom built in would get much smaller because as I understand it there are minimum diameters for lenses and distance to the sensor. Maybe they could do an ASPC zoom with collapsing lens but I still wonder why they wouldn't at that point make interchangeable lenses, like the pen series kit lens (but again, bigger). Sorry for the confusion on my earlier post.

[h00ligan]

Oh also you could do a ring adapter for better macro on the x1.

[FenderP]

Oh also you could do a ring adapter for better macro on the x1.

 

How? And what would I buy? My experience is that the .3 is still too long to really zoom in on some things or get good macro shots because of how far away you need to hold the camera.

 

EDIT: You mean something like this? http://www.amazon.com/Bower-SFDRLM-Macro-Digital-Camera/dp/B003BGRHVU

 

Definitely not what I want to schlep along anywhere.

 

That's a non-starter, not to mention it wouldn't work with my Luigi case. Lighting is not the problem.

[FenderP]

True, I wasn't stating the dl5 was a superzoom. I was just thinking aloud that possibly an ASPC superzoom could come. But it would be pointless as it would be huge.

 

The issue with I think any size camera that tries to incorporate a 4x zoom with ASPC even if it is fixed , it wouldn't save much space. I don't think a nex with the nex kit zoom built in would get much smaller because as I understand it there are minimum diameters for lenses and distance to the sensor. Maybe they could do an ASPC zoom with collapsing lens but I still wonder why they wouldn't at that point make interchangeable lenses, like the pen series kit lens (but again, bigger). Sorry for the confusion on my earlier post.

 

No worries. I appreciate your clarification.

 

One of the benefits of a fixed lens is (hopefully) no dust, which can clearly happen if you're swapping lenses.

 

I know I want the best of both worlds, but the way I look at it is I'm not some newbie X1 owner complaining without giving the camera a real workout. At this point I am now really seeing - for me - what its shortcomings truly are. Things like the AF and such aren't even issues for me.

[h00ligan]

How? And what would I buy? My experience is that the .3 is still too long to really zoom in on some things or get good macro shots because of how far away you need to hold the camera.

 

EDIT: You mean something like this? Amazon.com: Bower SFDRLM LED Macro Ring Light For The Leica M9, X1 Digital Camera: Electronics

 

Definitely not what I want to schlep along anywhere.

 

That's a non-starter, not to mention it wouldn't work with my Luigi case. Lighting is not the problem.

 

Sorry, I guess today is my day for not being clear enough - busy and should take more time. I meant the barrel adapter, not a ring flash.

 

There are hobbled together solutions and lensmate is considering making one. To be sure it's not the most elegant solution but usually when one is considering macro it's a planned event in my experience and it would take very little time to add on or remove. It isn't something I would want to use all the time, but it is light and easy (pop in a small bag). I am thinking that lensmate (should they make the adaptor ) coupled with something similar to the raynox offering, which is so much better on my 7d than I expected, would be an interesting exercise for not very much money.

 

Again, I know it's not a mount and forget solution, but it's pretty easy to mount/dismount and wouldn't add too much bulk. Again, apologies for not being more specific. Very often I post from an ios device which is not the greatest tool for long and well formed posts. To correct I think I'm replacing my iPad with a macbook air... my post quality should improve

[FenderP]

Sorry, I guess today is my day for not being clear enough - busy and should take more time. I meant the barrel adapter, not a ring flash.

 

There are hobbled together solutions and lensmate is considering making one. To be sure it's not the most elegant solution but usually when one is considering macro it's a planned event in my experience and it would take very little time to add on or remove. It isn't something I would want to use all the time, but it is light and easy (pop in a small bag). I am thinking that lensmate (should they make the adaptor ) coupled with something similar to the raynox offering, which is so much better on my 7d than I expected, would be an interesting exercise for not very much money.

 

Again, I know it's not a mount and forget solution, but it's pretty easy to mount/dismount and wouldn't add too much bulk. Again, apologies for not being more specific. Very often I post from an ios device which is not the greatest tool for long and well formed posts. To correct I think I'm replacing my iPad with a macbook air... my post quality should improve

 

Don't sweat it. I appreciate the follow up. It makes more sense now. Although a big problem with this is I do not carry a bag for my camera. I just carry or wear the camera when I'm out and about, so taking along extra stuff isn't really an option for me, and it doesn't seem like something I'd just throw in a jeans pocket. The food stuff for me is always spontaneous. Sometimes I'll be at a restaurant and want to do it, other times not.

[phancj]

4x on the DL5 is hardly a superzoom 4x is just fine and actually addresses an issue I had with the DL4; the zoom was useless in some cases. I'm not looking for a 10x, 16x zoom here.

 

One of the things I do take pictures of (among others) is that I actually like to take some close up pictures of things like food, which the X1 really doesn't excel at. I can make it work somewhat with a bit of difficulty. This is where the otherwise excellent prime and the X1 implementation fails me. Doing MF even down to the smallest possible focus isn't quite right, and you get a lot of bokeh which isn't always the intent.

 

It also makes it hard to do things like take pictures of items for eBay.

 

Zooming and cropping in LR or PS isn't really a workable solution in some of these cases.

 

I do not usually take photos of food but here's two from a trip.

 

I do not think I would feel compromised or need to crop excessively. The X1's macro range is more than sufficient for photos of food I'm sure, and these werent in the macro range even if I recall correctly. Insects from few feet away will be challenging if not impossible though...

 

Nothing against the DL5, but if I ever go from an APS-C to a smaller sensor I WOULD feel my images will be seriously compromised...

 

Cheers,CJ

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[FenderP]

I do not usually take photos of food but here's two from a trip.

 

I do not think I would feel compromised or need to crop excessively. The X1's macro range is more than sufficient for photos of food I'm sure, and these werent in the macro range even if I recall correctly. Insects from few feet away will be challenging if not impossible though...

 

Nothing against the DL5, but if I ever go from an APS-C to a smaller sensor I WOULD feel my images will be seriously compromised...

 

Cheers,CJ

 

I've taken pictures like that, but:

1. They take much longer to compose than when I was using my DL4. Kinda takes any kind of spontineity out of it.

2. As you can see in your pictures (as well as mine), the backround defocus happens. I generally don't want that when I'm doing pictures like this.

 

The X1 pretty much excels everywhere else, and I love its low light capabilities. This is why I'm a bit torn and trying to find a decent solution.

 

Attached is one are some of my food pics, as well as two low light ones I particularly like.

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[nippa]

I'm on my second copy of the Pana LX5 so I presume what I'm about to say applies equally to the DL5.

 

This little camera can produce wonderful results ( especially macro ) however....

 

Focusing is not as accurate as the X1 ; it's fast but you can see speed v accuracy issues to such an extent that I've started shooting a lot at f8 to get a bit of depth of field.

 

Jpegs can be poor even at base ISO and from what I've seen noise/image processing is causing smearing with RAW as the best option but even RAW files show signs of processing.

 

And the 2 lenses I've used are not up to the quality of the DL4 at the top end 60mm+. At wide angle it's every bit as good as the DL4 but beyond that it's just OK - certainly no Leica Look.

 

Overall it's a decent point and shoot that offers a little extra sensitivity over my DL4 but could never replace my X1.

 

It's a bit like comparing a Patek Phillipe watch with a cheap Rolex

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[wda]

For certain situations the D Lux5 is more flexible than the X1 but the results lack the high IQ of the latter. At a big dinner party recently, over 100 people, I knew the X1 would be constrained by my not being able to leap around a ballroom size venue. (I was a guest; not an official photographer!) So I took the DL5 and captured moments which would have been lost otherwise. The F/2 maximum aperture and wider angle lens (24mm) both fill gaps in the X1's coverage. There are occasions when both could be carried without swelling your pockets physically although I chose not to on that occasion. So, if possible, consider having both; each has unique merits. Certainly I would use the X1 as first choice every time for highest quality pictures

[phancj]

FenderP,

 

In my case I would want the defocus for background clutter.

 

But shouldnt you get the background sharp at f11 or f13?

 

Cheers,

CJ