ThorkilB Posted October 9, 2010 Share #101 Posted October 9, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Richard...a nice and near "as to be there yourself"-picture and also a bit sculpturel in its expression...so I think there's no way of return and you have to step forward to the M9, and send some more pictures from that... thorkil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 9, 2010 Posted October 9, 2010 Hi ThorkilB, Take a look here Should I take the M9 jump!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
RichardM8 Posted October 9, 2010 Author Share #102 Posted October 9, 2010 Hi CJ, Of course I thought about that too. But, like you, I don't like to buy things S/H although it does make a lot of sense sometimes. If you think about an M8, personally I would only consider the M8.2. It has a list of improvements that are very valuable imo. For me, it's the M9 or no M. The M9 has again a list of improvements that are even more valuable for me. The dedicated ISO button. Changing ISO is a fiddly process on the M8. The same for exposure compensation. Quick & easy on the M9, fiddly on the M8. These two alone make a big difference for me in every day use as I use both a lot. The M9 is also quicker and more important, more quiet. And there is the full frame sensor obviously. This allows the lenses to perform as they were designed including shallow DOF etc. The 18MP offers much more leeway for cropping. I find the modest 10MP from the M8 a little 'cramped' in this respect. The M9 also performs about a full stop better on high ISO. No small difference for me. And last but not least, starting with an identical image, the M9 images turn out clearly better after JPG conversion to smaller sizes simply due to the higher 18 MP pixel-count. I never knew this until I read the excellent in-depth reviews from Sean Reid on the Ms and lenses. Simply put, an 18MP DNG from the M9 produces a better (sharper & cleaner) file than the same 10MP DNG file from the M8 when converted to a smaller JPG size. Even if the initial noise level is the same! This list of improvements and differences is longer but these are more than important enough for me to only consider the M9. The shot below is from this morning. A beautiful soft sunrise imo... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 9, 2010 Share #103 Posted October 9, 2010 Richard, Then your decision process may be extended haha..... A used M8 is a nice interim solution while I make up my mind... Another thing, they just opened a spanking new Leica boutique here this week, I think I'm gonna pop by next week if I can find time. A real perilous place, may prompt me to dish out cash for the M9 on the spot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mboerma Posted October 9, 2010 Share #104 Posted October 9, 2010 Richard, I could see from the first photo which dealer you went to, Nivo Schweitzer, right? I bought my M8 there, but ordered my M9 from Ffordes in Scotland since you get a passport warranty on the UK camera. I'm sure you will even like the M9 more than the M8. Better ISO performance (a little) and most of all no more IR filters really makes a difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted October 9, 2010 Share #105 Posted October 9, 2010 I don't know what I'm doing wrong that some photos post and some don't. Here's the link: The Taj Mahal photo - Tina Manley photos at pbase.com Tina Tina, you are an inspiration. Thank you for sharing these fantastic pictures. Love your web page:). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted October 9, 2010 Share #106 Posted October 9, 2010 Richard, Much as I do not like to buy anything used, I am inclined towards buying a used M8. Reason is I believe the M9 may evolve quickly, so in the interim since you enjoy the M8 so much why not buy one at $2K it is a third of the M9. Also gives you a chance to use a RF for at least sometime to decide if you like it. I may do the same, and put more of my spare cash in lenses which will not go obsolete. the first I buy most likely brand new cron 35. I will try to make some arrangements to get a used M8, and need some help with which serial numbers are newer. Anyone able to help here?? And yes, I'll keep the x1, I got a feeling I'll use it more.[ M9 with f1.4 35mm is all one needs. With the M8 I felt it more difficult to find my preferred focal length. Now I use almost always the 50 or 35 lux asph. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 9, 2010 Share #107 Posted October 9, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ah, always the question that pops up: I will be visiting the Leica showroom here maybe next week, there is a possibility that I may not be able to resist the temptation of getting myself an M9( more chance of this if my wife is with me, I am a lucky guy she gives me support for most gadgets I buy:D). So as not to make a wrong lens selection (in my glee haha) can someone tell me which is THE single lens to start with? I am looking at two within my means: The 35 cron or the 50 lux. thanks, CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 9, 2010 Share #108 Posted October 9, 2010 Ecaton, the 35 lux is a little too expensive and not available easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 9, 2010 Share #109 Posted October 9, 2010 If buying used M8s, what is the serial numbers to avoid or look out for? I read certain batches are duds to begin with, hence more problems? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted October 9, 2010 Share #110 Posted October 9, 2010 Hi CJ,... Changing ISO is a fiddly process on the M8. The same for exposure compensation. Richard, not intending to sway your decision, but I use my presets simply to access different ISO and EV settings. I have one for basic seasonal shooting outdoors and another for indoors with Auto ISO. That leaves two for other permutations as the seasons and subjects change. If I need to tweak any of the settings, I quickly modify the preset in use, but do not save it. That means it remains stable for later shooting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorkilB Posted October 9, 2010 Share #111 Posted October 9, 2010 CJ I would go wide 24 or 28mm, would prefer 24, perhaps a small used Elmarit, should be good enough, but perhaps a matter of taste and how loaded you are....(I've got a 21 Elmarit, but people becomes a little bit fat in the outer edges....but I love the dramatic perspective, just like the SWC Hasselblad...) but you just have to walk quit near to things and sometimes have to have something interesting in the foreground...but then there can be happening things in the picture..(just look at Richards evening picture from center of Amsterdam, with the chairs in front and the shine in the window from the lamps and the near 3-dimentional perspective over the bridge...a little magical moment) Thorkil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Manley Posted October 10, 2010 Share #112 Posted October 10, 2010 Since I couldn't find any high ISO photos taken with my M9, I went out tonight and took some. Here is the night sky at 640: and at 2500: Just processed in LR with no extra noise removal. These were with the 90 Summicron. Tina Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Manley Posted October 10, 2010 Share #113 Posted October 10, 2010 and at 2500: Just processed in LR with no extra noise removal. These were with the 90 Summicron. Tina Broken link again!! Here it is: Carolina Moon @ 2500 ISO photo - Tina Manley photos at pbase.com Why would one photo show up and the other one copied the same way from the same site not show up? Tina Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 10, 2010 Share #114 Posted October 10, 2010 CJI would go wide 24 or 28mm, would prefer 24, perhaps a small used Elmarit, should be good enough, but perhaps a matter of taste and how loaded you are....(I've got a 21 Elmarit, but people becomes a little bit fat in the outer edges....but I love the dramatic perspective, just like the SWC Hasselblad...) but you just have to walk quit near to things and sometimes have to have something interesting in the foreground...but then there can be happening things in the picture..(just look at Richards evening picture from center of Amsterdam, with the chairs in front and the shine in the window from the lamps and the near 3-dimentional perspective over the bridge...a little magical moment) Thorkil Thanks! But with the 24 are you referring to it on the M8 or M9? I also like portraits so I dont relish the thoguht of making people look fat:eek: I also see your point of having more elements in the image, hence my dilemma with which lens. I thought of it: if I get the 35 cron new I can either buy a used M8 to fill me over or get a M9. if I go with 50 lux I can only get an M9. I feel the new 35 lux is overpriced. Last I checked they have only black M9s here but I like the silver better(not fond of black paint) normally I dun give a hoot about the color but at this price ahem... I will also go check out some M8s and make up my mind slowly... I am hoping to walk around with a single lens coz I hate to contend with sensor cleaning but concede that finally I will end up witht a couple more lenses, its just the way things are? and at 2500: Just processed in LR with no extra noise removal. These were with the 90 Summicron. Tina Broken link again!! Here it is: Carolina Moon @ 2500 ISO photo - Tina Manley photos at pbase.com Why would one photo show up and the other one copied the same way from the same site not show up? Tina Superb shots Tina! There are hints of noise but I suppose we dont usually shoot Leicas at that kind of iso, the realm where I think DSLRs have an edge. I shoot X1 up to 1600 max, but if I get a digital M I think the better way is probably a lux and try not to go over 640? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 10, 2010 Author Share #115 Posted October 10, 2010 Thank you Tina! Yes this forum sometimes acts weird linking from external sources. Photobucket seems to work consistently well from my end. What strikes me in these two shots is that the 640 shot is pretty noisy imo while the 2500 shot looks pretty good by comparison (given the ISO is almost 4 x higher). I think this confirms the conclusions from Sean Reid in his M9 review. The sensor from the M9 is just as noisy as the one from the M8 but the M9 applies in camera noise reduction from ISO 640 onwards (both in compressed and uncompressed DNGs) where the M8 doesn't or much less... Amazing that Reid is the only one to find and address this from all the 'expert reviews' out there on the M9. What impresses me more and more as I keep on shooting with my loaner M8 is the OOC sharpness and the amount of detail it captures. In a very 'natural' way as if it's nothing special. I took a few days before this dawned on me but this really is in a different league than the X1. I couldn't take the shot below as I wanted unfortunately. Shot from the hip. The 'now generation' in front of a very old building rolling and smoking joints in the middle of a busy street. Two police officers just strolled by. Nothing special here but I think there are not that much countries where you can shoot this. The dynamic range in this frame was very high. The amount of detail in the shadows is just stunning imo with only a trace of blown highlights. On full manual pre-setting the camera allows you to snap in an instant. Incredible. Even without bringing it up to your eyes. Old news for seasoned M owners but this really opens up a new way of shooting that I'm only beginning to discover now. The unobtrusive appearance and silence play an important role here too. People just don't take any notice. I've tried this a lot with my Canon 40D too but 8 out of 10 times the subjects noticed the slapping mirror if they weren't already alerted by the big black thing in my hands. With more annoyed faces than I liked... I'm just starting to grasp why the M Leicas' are and have been the ultimate street-shooting tools for decades and I love it. Richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted October 10, 2010 Share #116 Posted October 10, 2010 The m8 is an another league than the X1, you will see this when you play with bnw images, the m8 produces some of the best bnw around, even ahead of the m9. Emphasis on the best bnw the closest you will come to chemical prints. If you are into colour then the m9 will be your better option as the m8 colours can be a bit sketchy and require a bit of pp work to get them to sing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 10, 2010 Share #117 Posted October 10, 2010 Richard, Just for discussion sake, isnt that one point in favor for the used M8 then, assuming you are not looking at wider lenses? I am going to do the same as what you are doing, but I am lucky if I get to use the used M8 for two hours in the shop. The absence of the AA filter in the M8 will result in sharper OOC images for sure compared to the X1, all other factors aside. My last trial didnt yield concrete results in favor of either camera (M8 vs X1) so I guess an encore is in order... Here it isnt that cheap really, used M8 in good condition US$2785, new M9 US$8000. You guys have it easy. Lenses new: 35 lux US$4,800 35 cron $3,000 50 lux $3,700. I can probably squeeze some discounts off, but it is not going to be much. The X1 I got from the shop I frequent often, so it was only $2000 same in the states probably. But for used camera I dun know anyone well, have always bought cameras new. Luckily, the used camera stores are located in the vicinity of the new Leica Boutique, which is also close to my regular camera shop, so comparisons will be easy! I' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 10, 2010 Author Share #118 Posted October 10, 2010 Tnx stnami. I've read about the IR 'problem' helping B&W with the M8. CJ, Yes it is. But reading about something is very different than discovering and experiencing it first hand. I too have read a lot about 'the different way of shooting', 'seeing the subject', 'get into the scene', 'more involved in taking the image' and all those familiar phrases associated with M photography. But I never really managed to make these very tangible for myself by reading about it. It takes a little while playing around to get a feel of what these cliches really mean. If I had to decide for an M after a few hours of use I would have kept my X1 without a doubt. Now some 4 days on with the M, I feel there really is no going back... I think you should try to rent the M for a couple of days. Not just take it for two hours. But beware 'cos I think there's a big chance there will be no going back for you either... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 10, 2010 Share #119 Posted October 10, 2010 Tnx stnami. I've read about the IR 'problem' helping B&W with the M8. CJ, Yes it is. But reading about something is very different than discovering and experiencing it first hand. I too have read a lot about 'the different way of shooting', 'seeing the subject', 'get into the scene', 'more involved in taking the image' and all those familiar phrases associated with M photography. But I never really managed to make these very tangible for myself by reading about it. It takes a little while playing around to get a feel of what these cliches really mean. If I had to decide for an M after a few hours of use I would have kept my X1 without a doubt. Now some 4 days on with the M, I feel there really is no going back... I think you should try to rent the M for a couple of days. Not just take it for two hours. But beware 'cos I think there's a big chance there will be no going back for you either... Richard, How is DSLR photography in your opinion different from M? Size and IQ aside, I mean the usage, handling,etc. Honestly I lean towards Leica for size & IQ. I see DSLR as faster, easier not to mention cheaper. I tried the M8 for an hour and it wasnt difficult, but I dont envisage it being any advantageous as you described. I am all for nostalgia but at the risk of being flamed by all I am curious how different will the experience be if I use MF on a DSLR. I tried the RF focusing and it is fine and accurate, but I do not see it being quick or better than DSLR with MF or AF. IQ and great lenses aside, I am curious what is the allure, coz there must be some operational advantages, not just because it is a page from the past? Dun get me wrong, I like what Leica stands for, for me its great lenses, simple controls, small size. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 10, 2010 Author Share #120 Posted October 10, 2010 CJ, The last year I had my Canon SLR I used Zeiss MF primes. Using a 'real' MF lens like a Zeiss is much better than manual focussing an AF lens (turning the ring through the AF motor, instead of driving the lens elements directly etc.). But this still a long way from focussing and shooting with an M. And the size, feel, silence, unpretentious appearance and IQ are not to be set aside. These are essential elements of M photography. I don't know what else I can say or describe than what I already did. And thousands of others in their own words. I think what it comes down to is this; If the 'M thing' doesn't catch you fairly quick, It probably never will and M ownership is not for you. Words of my dealer but they seem very true. Hundreds of posts and opinions on forums and in reviews can't learn you what a few days of shooting will make very clear. Try it and see if it works for you is the best I can say imo. Richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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