Should I take the M9 jump!

[RichardM8]

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I'm having fun with it.

 

The images look good. I do think it's already quite noisy at ISO 640 (not visible on this small export though)

 

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[Etruscello]

RichardX1, I think you made the right choice in your rental, now I encourage you to buy the M8. Why buy an M9 for 7k when you can get comparable quality in an M8 for far less money. Yes, the M8 needs filters, but with the filters, the M8 provides a better correction than the M9 without filters. The M8 will give you better corners also, because of the 1.3 crop. The M8's 1.3 crop is not a problem if you have wide lenses (the CV 12mm works beautifully on the M8 but is not well corrected on the M9) or are willing to step back a bit when composing. There is even no noise difference at ISO 640 or higher if you post-process the M8 noise -- that is what I believe all that the M9 is doing, some internal post-processing of noise. Tom P.

[phancj]

Richard,

 

Dunno if I can ask a favor, coz I am so curious too.

 

Can you bring both your X1 and the M8 shoot under exact same conditions maybe more telling?

 

I am doing this with my Nikon soon too, when my 35mm f1.4 comes.

 

Last time I tried the M8 was with the 35mm summicron, images was not bad, but I could not tell which images are better, both look good, bit different somehow.

 

The summicron should be better than the elmarit, no?

 

I am hoping you may have comparison shots at different isos, and lighting condition. You are lucky, here we cannot take the camera out for long, the shop did allow me to shoot some photos outside the mall but thats it.

[dseelig]

Hi Richard One thing about the noise lightroom 3 has much better noise supression then any other converter, i have used. I had an m8 always had the one when I got an m9 I had to get a second one. I am a working pro who also loves street photography. I sacrificed my 1ds mk111 to get it. I am not rich by any means but the m9 was the camera I had to have, and I needed a second to work properly. The m8 had too many issues the ir filters some times reflect into the frame and cause weird reflections in the frame. Good luck and enjoy.

[RichardM8]

Hi CJ,

 

I'm afraid I can't make such a 1-on-1 comparison. My Leica dealer normally asks for a down payment as insurance when you take a camera like the M8 with you. I was there with my X1 so I left my X1 there as a down payment instead. Sorry mate.

 

With an even better lens (the 28 El is pretty good on the M8) things will get better for sure but I don't think it will change the signature of the M8 images drastically. What I see now is already quite in line with what I see around web. Here and in various reviews. And I have enough X1 images to get a good sense of how the images are different. The images from the M8 seem to have something 'real' and more palpable about them than the X1. If a little over-saturated sometimes. They seem 'honest' as it seems like there is no noise reduction applied. And they respond very well in post.

 

But the noise does bother me. It's more than I expected at ISO 640. And more than it should be at this price level imo. I didn't try 1250 yet but I think I won't be happy with the results. The X1 definitely has the edge on noise at higher ISOs. At he same time the images from the X1 from ISO 400 on - while very good - also need post work and they do get a bit more 'P&S' look. Probably due to in camera noise reduction.

 

I know I shouldn't make this comparison as it are different worlds but if I look at the images from a friend from his D700 + Zeiss primes I can't suppress a d*mn this is good feeling... But in the same sentence I also have to say that his images don't have the rich look of Leica images (X1 or M8). The Nikon is extremely good in a technical kind of way. I never thought I would say this but it's true. No getting around it.

 

This short affair with the M8 already proves that the IQ from the X1 is absolutely stunning. Taking the price difference into account it even gets a little insane imo. Either the M8 is *relatively* poor for it's price and/or the X1 is extremely good for its price. It a bit of both I think.

 

But all this doesn't belie the fact that I absolutely love the M experience so far. The way of shooting, the feel, actively taking every single image, it's like nothing else. In this sense 'the myth' is already very true for me.

 

I feel a huge dilemma coming up...

 

Richard.

[phancj]

Thanks Richard!

 

For a moment I almost thought of going down to my regular dealer tot ell them how things are going on with the loan of the M8 but since you talk about a down payment as insurance then better to keep quiet!

 

It is hard to compare, like in my X1 I set sharpening at medium low the jpegs are stunning and very realistic, but when we post due to the small size I sharpen aggressively to give more punch. With the M8 and 35mm cron I shot the images they were nicely sharp but not overly so like the X1 in default. However, I felt the colors on the M8 were quite off sometimes but the X1 gives more accurate colors.

 

The other thing is to lug this thing all round town. Last I tried for the half hour or so I was already beginning to feel the weight(spoilt by the X1's weightlessness haha). Then I thought like what the hell I bought the X1 for its portability and with the high price of M lenses I probably will end up buying 35mm (if only one lens) then whats the point of owning an interchangeable lens system with only one lens?

 

 

The poor high iso performance, price, durability issues, etc all weighs heavily. Being a flagship product I wished they make it easier for us to decide also by weatherproofing it like the S2. I do not wish to risk an expensive camera in the rain, dust, etc babysitting a camera is no fun.

 

Then you go to the net and see these M9 images with the lux and you go like even if one lens its worth it! When I get the 35mm Nikkor 1.4 I will try out and then decide if you can get the "lux look", if not then it is just leica. I seen some done with the 24mm f1.4 they were leica -like for creaminess and all. I am definitely taking my time but meanwhile still having fun shooting with the X1.

 

Sometimes my X1 produces images that make my jaws drop still (after more than half a year). It is almost all base iso, f2.8-f4.

 

Keep updating us, what a bummer with no side-by-side comparison. Maybe I should look for a rental.

[RichardM8]

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Hi CJ,

 

I agree on some but not on all your points.

 

For one, I definitely don't like the OOC JPGs from the X1 at all but we've been over that before. With the DNG files I don't see better color accuracy from the X1. They are just different. But I correct most images slightly for color and temperature with every camera I had. The X1 and M8 are no different in that respect.

 

In real life I don't experience much difference between the portability between the two. The X1 is not a pocket-cam either and I always carry it over my shoulder in its leather case. Just as I do the M8 now. The weight difference is there but holding and using the camera I much prefer the more substantial weight and feel of the M. The X1 feels a little too light and flimsy for my taste. An M9 with a 35 Cron tips the scale at only 900 grams. That is not much compared to a full frame SLR with a comparable good prime. The 35 Zeiss prime I used on my Canon SLR was 650 grams alone...

 

Yesterday I met two friends at our local bar. They just had to see and feel 'my' M8. One with his D700 + 35 prime I mentioned, the other with a 7D with a 50 prime. Ha ha ha... These cams are humongous compared to the small M8! It's almost silly when you see them next to each other. The M9 is the smallest and lightest full frame camera in the world today.

 

I think it's not a bad plan to rent/borrow an M9 and try it for a while...

 

Richard.

[phancj]

Hi CJ,

 

I agree on some but not on all your points.

 

For one, I definitely don't like the OOC JPGs from the X1 at all but we've been over that before. With the DNG files I don't see better color accuracy from the X1. They are just different. But I correct most images slightly for color and temperature with every camera I had. The X1 and M8 are no different in that respect.

 

In real life I don't experience much difference between the portability between the two. The X1 is not a pocket-cam either and I always carry it over my shoulder in its leather case. Just as I do the M8 now. The weight difference is there but holding and using the camera I much prefer the more substantial weight and feel of the M. The X1 feels a little too light and flimsy for my taste. An M9 with a 35 Cron tips the scale at only 900 grams. That is not much compared to a full frame SLR with a comparable good prime. The 35 Zeiss prime I used on my Canon SLR was 650 grams alone...

 

Yesterday I met two friends at our local bar. They just had to see and feel 'my' M8. One with his D700 + 35 prime I mentioned, the other with a 7D with a 50 prime. Ha ha ha... These cams are humongous compared to the small M8! It's almost silly when you see them next to each other. The M9 is the smallest and lightest full frame camera in the world today.

 

I think it's not a bad plan to rent/borrow an M9 and try it for a while...

 

Richard.

 

Okay Richard, keep those thoughts coming....I am still waiting for the 35mm Nikkor and the firmware for X1 (supposedly coming:)) .

 

Pertaining to portability I put the X1 in a belt pouch I cant see myself doing that for the M8 thats why my experience differs, maybe.

 

 

Thanks,

CJ

[RichardM8]

Okay Richard, keep those thoughts coming....I am still waiting for the 35mm Nikkor and the firmware for X1 (supposedly coming:)) .

 

Me too. The X1 firmware that is... Make no mistake. I absolutely love my X1 and haven't decided on the M. Not by a long shot. If anything, playing with the M8 clearly shows just how good the X1 is IQ wise.

But also what it can't do and can't deliver. The X1 has a more P&S feel and way of shooting. The M shooting experience completely different and I think great. I can't deny that adds much more than I expected.

 

 

 

Pertaining to portability I put the X1 in a belt pouch I cant see myself doing that for the M8 thats why my experience differs, maybe.

 

True, I think it's too heavy and too big for that. But I have tried the X1 on my belt and I couldn't get used to that either. Too big as wel...

 

 

[phancj]

Me too. The X1 firmware that is... Make no mistake. I absolutely love my X1 and haven't decided on the M. Not by a long shot. If anything, playing with the M8 clearly shows just how good the X1 is IQ wise.

But also what it can't do and can't deliver. The X1 has a more P&S feel and way of shooting. The M shooting experience completely different and I think great. I can't deny that adds much more than I expected.

 

 

 

 

 

True, I think it's too heavy and too big for that. But I have tried the X1 on my belt and I couldn't get used to that either. Too big as wel...

 

 

 

Maybe from DSLR I kinda like P&S more now, and lack of AF means I can only shoot that many frames a day given the strain on eyes. Within 5 minutes with the M8 I was able to nail all shots spot-on that says a lot about rangefinders how good they are. It is also that the VF is not as big, as bright as I imagine (too much hype prior I guess) and I understood from the dealer the more you go telephoto, the harder focusing can be due to smaller window. So I suggest you try out 50mm too. Low light and lack of distinct shapes to do the focusing can also slow down the focusing IMHO.

 

I cannot deny using rangefinder is nice coz it is so different and to me the heritage and history has its allure. Also a whole lot of prestige and wow factor really.

 

I think the Leica leather case is too heavy by itself for the belt, I am using something else. it is perfectly fitted for the X1 and it very light. I love having the X1 on my belt doesnt get in the way and the X1 itself is so light. This I guess is personal thing but I do not like straps across the body especially in hot weather.

 

No offense Richard just my honest opinion I think your shots with the X1 are MUCH NICER. Go check your recent one of your boy with the X1 you posted a while back (that one almost knocked me off the chair!) and compare to the above. of course conditions are different, etc,etc. I recall many of your X1 photos have a "smoothness" I do not see in the above. My two cents..could it be you are more used to processing with the X1 files? Another week probably will yield more answers?

 

I think if you get a lux loaner you will buy the M9 straightaway. Luckily I tried only a 35 cron. Go 50 lux and we're both sold, instantly!!??

[ThorkilB]

take a look once more at the picture at top of p. 3. The poor fellow dare not to smile when the big DSLR are being put up right in front of his face. Actually he is a little embarrassed even the photografer are trying to help him smile, with his own big smile...but no succes. Had he have an M in front of him, I'm sure he would be relaxed...and smiling..

Buy the M9 together with a small lense.

The colours of the X1 (of the son?) also seems a little oversaturated, will not happen with the M9 I think.

[Ecaton]

Interesting thread. I had the M8 and since spring of this year the M9. The latter is undoubtedly the better,more refined camera. Besides ff, evolutionary improvements simply make it a more satisfying tool to use. No question, IQ wise the M8 still can deliver in spades. But the M9 is the RF I could see myself using as long as it is working.

Comparing the digital M with the X1, besides IQ, UI, size and weight, there are other criteria which make the two so different tools to use.

The M responds immediately, focuses exactly where you want it to focus, as fast as you can, releases its shutter when you want it to be released, becomes the extension of your eye and arm. As far as speed, focusing and framing accuracy are concerned, the photographer's skills are the decisive factors.

The X1, sometimes, has its own life, not exactly or immediately doing what it ought to do, getting into ones way. The RF shooting experience is unique, whereas the one with the X1 is not.

If you decide to get the M9, I predict your next question to be: do the M9 and X1 complement one another, is the latter a good backup for the former? The logic answer is, NEITHER. But you might keep both nevertheless. Leica's are emontional products, eventually.

[phancj]

Interesting thread. I had the M8 and since spring of this year the M9. The latter is undoubtedly the better,more refined camera. Besides ff, evolutionary improvements simply make it a more satisfying tool to use. No question, IQ wise the M8 still can deliver in spades. But the M9 is the RF I could see myself using as long as it is working.

Comparing the digital M with the X1, besides IQ, UI, size and weight, there are other criteria which make the two so different tools to use.

The M responds immediately, focuses exactly where you want it to focus, as fast as you can, releases its shutter when you want it to be released, becomes the extension of your eye and arm. As far as speed, focusing and framing accuracy are concerned, the photographer's skills are the decisive factors.

The X1, sometimes, has its own life, not exactly or immediately doing what it ought to do, getting into ones way. The RF shooting experience is unique, whereas the one with the X1 is not.

If you decide to get the M9, I predict your next question to be: do the M9 and X1 complement one another, is the latter a good backup for the former? The logic answer is, NEITHER. But you might keep both nevertheless. Leica's are emontional products, eventually.

 

Do you think you may miss AF? specially intensive shooting where focusing with the RF might be a strain?

 

These are relevant questions to me since I am over 40s now where longsightedness creeps in together with my already high myopia (I belong to the first atari game console generation, spent hours each day in front of cathode ray TVs as a kid:eek:). Do you find telephoto lenses and dimmer situations challenging to focus?

 

The X1 may be slow to AF but it doesnt miss the mark much, and AF is relaxed shooting I can do hundreds a day while traveling. Gosh how I wish the M9 has the option to AF all my problems solved no need to ponder.

 

Also, DSLRs though big and clunky has blazing fast AF and make MF on M9 seems like a joke (in terms of speed that is). Dun get me wrong I am DSLR averse now having used the X1(so portable) for over half a year and loving it. But sometimes I look at the lux images and hmmm.....

[ThorkilB]

The M responds immediately, focuses exactly where you want it to focus, as fast as you can, releases its shutter when you want it to be released, becomes the extension of your eye and arm. As far as speed, focusing and framing accuracy are concerned, the photographer's skills are the decisive factors.

...just spot on...even though I've had Nikon all my life, its only the Hasselblad SWC and the M6 that crept under my skin, and its only the M6 that kept my smiling when shooting..all the time....and the extension of the arm, mind and body....that is what matters (naturally together with all the other qualities off course)....so ...at least for me, also...there is no other way to go (and no the Fujifilm X100 cant do the job either, because of its own life as you describe with AF)...so we are luckily stucked to this path (besides the little problem with the money)...and thats a relief.....the only way is M9

[ThorkilB]

phancj

Then you just have to use more wide-angel, messure the distance with your eyes, set the distance, and let the DOF do the rest, and dont shoot totally open, even if the trend tell us that its a must to have shalloow DOF. NO it isn't....! This trend has got too far in my opinion.

Thorkil

[phancj]

...just spot on...even though I've had Nikon all my life, its only the Hasselblad SWC and the M6 that crept under my skin, and its only the M6 that kept my smiling when shooting..all the time....and the extension of the arm, mind and body....that is what matters (naturally together with all the other qualities off course)....so ...at least for me, also...there is no other way to go (and no the Fujifilm X100 cant do the job either, because of its own life as you describe with AF)...so we are luckily stucked to this path (besides the little problem with the money)...and thats a relief.....

 

Another question as a Non M-user who is considering the path, honestly, how sensitive is the M9 to shocks and such? Using the camera often means having to bang it up a bit whether we like it or not. My X1 in a little over half a year has been dropped twice but thankfully it is still alive:D. I keep reading on rangefinder re-alignment, cracked sensor glass, etc, etc plus long wait for servicing at solms, etc, all these weigh heavily against the M9 for me. Spending so much on a camera is acceptable to me if it does what it does well but having to not be able to use it for weeks while being serviced and having to service it after a drop or two I do not think I will enjoy a camera if I have to babysit it.

 

I know digital Ms are not built like a tank coz compared to the film Ms which are basically rocks. Exactly how "fragile" is a digital M and how easily does the RF goes out of alignment?

 

I'll rather hear it from actual digital M-users on this since we are on the M9 topic rather than listen to typical Leica-bashers.

[phancj]

phancj

Then you just have to use more wide-angel, messure the distance with your eyes, set the distance, and let the DOF do the rest, and dont shoot totally open, even if the trend tell us that its a must to have shalloow DOF. NO it isn't....! This trend has got too far in my opinion.

Thorkil

 

haha, but what if I love those shallow DOF and dreamy bokeh which in my opinion are what the other camera makes cannot duplicate as perfectly?

 

My first M-lens (assuming I end up buying ) will mostly likely be a lux, likely 35mm.

[Tina Manley]

Hi CJ,

 

I think it's not a bad plan to rent/borrow an M9 and try it for a while...

 

Richard.

 

I think you're right. The M9 is very different from the M8. I have two M8's and one M9 and, these days, I always reach for the M9. The high ISOs are much better. There's nothing like using Leica lenses on a full frame camera. The M9 is the digital camera I've been waiting for since I switched to digital. I don't think you would ever regret getting one, but try it out first!

 

Tina

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Tina Manley]

Another question as a Non M-user who is considering the path, honestly, how sensitive is the M9 to shocks and such?

I'll rather hear it from actual digital M-users on this since we are on the M9 topic rather than listen to typical Leica-bashers.

 

My M8's have been dropped in rivers in Honduras and India. My M9 has traveled with me to remote places in developing countries. They are all still working fine. I had the shutter replaced on an M8 after I dropped it on a marble floor. It was still in warranty and returned in one week by Leica. I've never had a minute's problem with the M9. I'm really hard on equipment!! Here is my M8:

 

 

Still works fine!

 

Tina

[ThorkilB]

Another question as a Non M-user who is considering the path, honestly, how sensitive is the M9 to shocks and such? Using the camera often means having to bang it up a bit whether we like it or not. My X1 in a little over half a year has been dropped twice but thankfully it is still alive:D.

I just ought not to answer, because I dont own a M9...yet(!), but I read between the lines that its just as solid as the M6(which I have begun using naked again), and thats enough. I must (blushingly..)admit that I'm over 55 and the M6 went out with half-case lens hood and so...but the M9 will be naked and the little 21 elmarit will be without the lenshood, just an UV/sky-filter no more...it must be small as possible, and then it must get all the scratshes that will be nessary (around in building-places etc. also as my job as architect)....life has become too short to take care of everything. And if I have to sent it to Solms then I have to use the LX3 with no bitternes as long as it takes)...thats my decision...my camera has to live....

thorkil