Two Dead M9s

[elansprint72]

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I find it increasingly unacceptable that Leica never, ever ,makes any response to threads such as this (and, since the M8 disaster, there have been many). There is clearly something very badly wrong in quality control- after all these are not cheap low-tech items, they are a premium product. If they seek to align themselves with the likes of AUDI, they must accept the VAG QC philosophy too.

 

They must also engage with their customers, is it really acceptable that a volunteer, unpaid, Moderator is the only "voice of Leica" on this forum. That is simply unfair.

 

I have read frequently that "Leica" reads this forum and takes note; well if that really is the case, I believe that they owe a public apology to all the customers who have received goods of un-merchantable quality, as UK law describes faulty items.

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[bill]

Leica Portugal was an early attempt to move production to a lower cost economy, an advantage which has been eroded over time. I would prefer Leica to make the entire M9 in Germany (accepting that many parts and assemblies, especially the shutter and elecrtronics, are bought in from wherever) because Germany has a track record of precision manufacturing which Portugal simply does not. QC has to be applied throughout the entire parts sourcing and production processes and it's wrong to expect the people in Solms to pick up any and all problems which may have been introduced much earlier in the process.

 

Mark, to an extent, I agree with you. However, the reality is that Leica Portugal has been in operation now for many years. During that time a local pool of skilled resource has been built up. Transplanting production back to Germany now would obliterate the value of that pool, and would almost certainly result in a (temporary) dip in product quality that would, again, lead to wailing and gnashing of teeth in these august halls.

 

I really don't care what language the worker speaks, nor whether they live in Lisbon or Leipzig; what matters is the training of those people and the QC processes to which they adhere.

 

Being born German does not confer some supernatural ability to work more accurately, produce less rejects or to care more about the finished product; corporate ethos, and investment in people, process and plant do.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Guest trond]

I totally agree, training and corporate philosophy is the important points here.

 

I have worked in consumer electronics for more that thirty years, my company (European), does all its production in south-east Asia.

 

Reject level is on a yearly basis lower than 50 ppm (parts per million), and is tightly linked to training of operators and strict QA routines.

 

Translated to M9 production, this would mean on average less than one failing M9 pr year.

 

If this is possible in a low cost country, it clearly should be possible in Europe with a highly skilled work force.

 

Leica must fix the quality issues sooner rather than later, because I think that new Leica customers will be much less tolerant, than the ever forgiving Leica aficionado, who can not find any fault what so ever, as long as there is a red logo with Leica on the product!

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[mn4367]

I don't believe the M9Ti will have influenced M9 production so far, availabilty is said to be Nov/Dec and Leica dates often slip. The M9Ti is just an M9 in glitzy (was going to say smart but thought better of it) clothes but will compete with the normal M9 for production resources at some point. For a limited production run, it would make sense to take a normal M9 from Portugal, dismantle it and replace the parts different in the M9Ti rather than set up a completely separate production line. If Leica are making between 50 and 100 cameras a day, the effect of the the M9Ti is not so great.

 

Leica Portugal was an early attempt to move production to a lower cost economy, an advantage which has been eroded over time. I would prefer Leica to make the entire M9 in Germany (accepting that many parts and assemblies, especially the shutter and elecrtronics, are bought in from wherever) because Germany has a track record of precision manufacturing which Portugal simply does not. QC has to be applied throughout the entire parts sourcing and production processes and it's wrong to expect the people in Solms to pick up any and all problems which may have been introduced much earlier in the process.

 

Leica will know how much extra an M9 would cost to make if it were entirely made in Germany. We do not but it must presumably be significant enough to warrant keeping Portugal going.

 

Does make you wonder whether there will ever be a thread entitled: "Two Dead M9Ti's". Leica must be hoping this camera will be for collectors only.

 

With all due respect, but I think Leica will know the best way how to integrate the manufacturing of the TI. If not, they'd surely ask the forum . With regard to Portugal and QC: the assumption that the parts coming from there cause quality issues is based on which facts?

 

A little anecdote: On my factory visit last year shortly after the introduction of the M9 the Leica employee guiding the group was asked exactly this question. Does Portugal deliver sufficient quality? The obvious answer was yes, of course. And off the records he said that indeed the quality is so good, that some Leica responsibles wish, that the german parts would be on the same level.

 

IMO most posts about the reasons behind Leica quality issues are based on pure speculations. And as long as Leica doesn't tell, they will remain speculations.

[Guest trond]

This is not speculation at all!

 

It is based on the reported number of failing M9s and lenses.

 

My own experience with three brand new lenses, that had to go to Solms two times each before they where fixed, one of them, a 21 SX, needed a new lens element because the existing one was out of tolerance range.

 

The number of failing M9s, compared to the low production number, is so alarmingly high, that the only possible conclusion is that the QC is very poor!

 

No mater how low the refernece is, compared to any modern production standards.

 

This is a situation, that an take a healthy company out of business if the situation persists for an extended period of time.

 

Product returns are very expensive, and cost at least ten times as much, as it would do to fix the problem before the product leaves the factory in the first place.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[mn4367]

Leica must fix the quality issues sooner rather than later, because I think that new Leica customers will be much less tolerant, than the ever forgiving Leica aficionado, who can not find any fault what so ever, as long as there is a red logo with Leica on the product!

 

Sure, any company has to fix quality issues and especially Leica with their commitment for precision and quality is no exeption. But the more important question is, how many problems caused by quality issues are there really outside, especially compared to the number of delivered products without flaws? This is the problem with internet forums, you'll probably see more customers with problems than without. How many faults are directly caused by Leica themselves? Suppose you unpack a new M9 and the sensor is cracked. How do you know that the camera left the factory with an already broken sensor?

 

So before demanding that Leica (or any other company) has to 'fix their QC issues' I'd rather like to have some serieous facts showing that there is actually something wrong with the QC process or that the number of issues justifies this assumption.

[SJP]

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<snip> If this is possible in a low cost country, it clearly should be possible in Europe with a highly skilled work force. <snip>

In the ideal case yes but there are interesting cultural differences that make the far- east (Japan, Korea, Shanghai) to be found very suitable for extreme quality control. Philips joined up with LG for LCD - TV development as they believed it was impossible to get the NL work force quality concious to the required extent. Phrased differently the Dutch are a a bunch of anarchists who do not follow orders, rules, regulations etc.

 

At the multinational company I worked for they made use of the Dutch & German differences when starting up a production plant. First the Dutch gang entered and got the show up and running quickly by whatever means available, breaking all the rules in the book. Then they got booted out and the German crew entered to sort out the mess and get all the cables, controllers, tubing looking spic and span and properly documented. Both the Dutch and the German crews were aware of this and fully endorsed this procedure. It just made sense.

[rosuna]

There is an important factor which will affect manufacturing in the near future: the new factory at Wetzlar. This is an opportunity to rethink all the manufacturing process. Moving to the Leitz Park will be a complex operation and Leica can reorganize many things then.

 

The problems affecting M cameras, and even lenses, are of different nature. Some problems are of assembling/adjusting type, others are of finishing type, and others are of components quality type. The last one is mostly related to electronics (sensor, but also motherboard, screen, etc.), and it seems to affect the M9 specially. There are different partners/suppliers involved (Kodak, Jenoptik, and others). The mix of suppliers, I guess, is different in the X1 and S2 cameras. The question is how reliable are the electronic elements of those two cameras in comparative terms (to the M8/M9). My impression is that the M9 needs a redesign of the guts from scratch, because some reliability problems of the M8 are recurrent in the new model.

[bill]

At the multinational company I worked for they made use of the Dutch & German differences when starting up a production plant.

Heaven is a place where:

The lovers are Italian

The cooks are French

The mechanics are German

The police are English

The government is run by the Swiss

 

Hell is a place where:

The lovers are Swiss

The cooks are English

The mechanics are French

The police are German

The government is run by the Italians

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Guest trond]

On this forum alone, there is a list of 20 M9s (with serial number) with cracked sensors.

 

There are various estimates of the total number of produced M9s, of around 20000.

 

Even if it was 100000 M9s, any production manager with his right mind, would halt production when the failure rate goes above 200 ppm, until the root cause is found.

 

The M9 failure rate is much higher than this number, yet Leica keeps turning out M9s.

 

Quite happy with their quality level, as long as the customers are quite happy to get their hands on one.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[rosuna]

In the ideal case yes but there are interesting cultural differences that make the far- east (Japan, Korea, Shanghai) to be found very suitable for extreme quality control. Philips joined up with LG for LCD - TV development as they believed it was impossible to get the NL work force quality concious to the required extent. Phrased differently the Dutch are a a bunch of anarchists who do not follow orders, rules, regulations etc.

 

At the multinational company I worked for they made use of the Dutch & German differences when starting up a production plant. First the Dutch gang entered and got the show up and running quickly by whatever means available, breaking all the rules in the book. Then they got booted out and the German crew entered to sort out the mess and get all the cables, controllers, tubing looking spic and span and properly documented. Both the Dutch and the German crews were aware of this and fully endorsed this procedure. It just made sense.

 

I think Spaniards are more like Dutch.

[mn4367]

This is not speculation at all!

 

It is based on the reported number of failing M9s and lenses.

 

My own experience with three brand new lenses, that had to go to Solms two times each before they where fixed, one of them, a 21 SX, needed a new lens element because the existing one was out of tolerance range.

 

The number of failing M9s, compared to the low production number, is so alarmingly high, that the only possible conclusion is that the QC is very poor!

 

No mater how low the refernece is, compared to any modern production standards.

 

This is a situation, that an take a healthy company out of business if the situation persists for an extended period of time.

 

Product returns are very expensive, and cost at least ten times as much, as it would do to fix the problem before the product leaves the factory in the first place.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

 

Just to keep it clear, I'm not defending Leica at all. The case you decribe (6 factory returns) is indeed completely unacceptable and I'd like to see an explanation from Leica. But how many M9s failed really (approximate number worldwide please)? And how many have been produced really (again, approximate number worldwide please)? If we don't have these numbers, we cannot tell if actually there is a serious problem with QC. Again, I don't say there isn't, but to be really sure we'd need more facts.

[rosuna]

There are various estimates of the total number of produced M9s, of around 20000.

 

 

The number seems to be 14.000 for the first 10 months.

 

The source: Brand Eins, German business magazine, 10/2010 issue, article "Update Für Eine Ikone" by Harald Willenbrock. It was referenced by other member of this forum.

[SJP]

Considering the small series I am not at all surprised with 20/14000 failure. Considering all the connectors etc. it is not at all unlikely for vibration to cause failures in transit. Just a loose connector could account for shutter faults, clocks not running etc. So maybe all DOA camera's did pass QC because they worked at Solms.

 

Precisely the fact that Leica M's are assembled by hand (lovingly) means that you must live with a certain failure rate, only for large series can you set up a real production line where you can trace failures & eliminate.

[rosuna]

Considering the small series I am not at all surprised with 20/14000 failure.

 

SJP, that number is only for the cracked sensors problem. Is that correct?

[elansprint72]

SJP, that number is only for the cracked sensors problem. Is that correct?

 

Not every M9 owner is on this forum and, I suspect, not every one on this forum has posted about their troubles.

 

I suggest that some newer members might take a couple of days off work and read the tales of woe in the M8 forum. We are not talking about only 20 cases here.

[SJP]

SJP, that number is only for the cracked sensors problem. Is that correct?

Mmmmm, yes my mistake. I was just using numbers mentioned earlier & overlooked that is was cracked sensor guestimate. Anyway the no. of DoA seems in the similar ballpark (at least that is my impression I did not do a full search).

 

Cracked sensor is an issue that appears to have been sorted as I can not recall any recent cases on current production. Various DoA like shutter faults, SD card, clock, led not working etc. are more persistent and very hard to eliminate altogether.

 

Maybe both M9's mentioned by the OP were in a crate that was dropped? There are plenty of examples where "handle with care" is ignored, by accident or by not caring less.

[SJP]

Not every M9 owner is on this forum and, I suspect, not every one on this forum has posted about their troubles.

 

I suggest that some newer members might take a couple of days off work and read the tales of woe in the M8 forum. We are not talking about only 20 cases here.

Maybe not but 10% or so would be a reasonable lower limit, possibly 50% of M9 users. But we just do not know the numbers.

 

However if a M9 breaks down I am pretty sure that the owner would find this forum to tell us of the event & ask for advice. So maybe we have 50% of actual cases reported here. Again an estimate.

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[elansprint72]

Maybe not but 10% or so would be a reasonable lower limit, possibly 50% of M9 users. But we just do not know the numbers.

 

However if a M9 breaks down I am pretty sure that the owner would find this forum to tell us of the event & ask for advice. So maybe we have 50% of actual cases reported here. Again an estimate.

 

10% of what is reasonable?

[Guest]

Heaven is a place where:

The lovers are Italian

The cooks are French

The mechanics are German

The police are English

The government is run by the Swiss

 

Hell is a place where:

The lovers are Swiss

The cooks are English

The mechanics are French

The police are German

The government is run by the Italians

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

 

Leicas are earthly. Specially the new ones costing > 5k.

So what % of issues is acceptable without hoping for heavenly nor fearing the flames?

 

I am happy with my 2 M8u from Dec. 2007!

 

Thinking of guys, who traded one such beauty in and added 3k (€, $ or whatever) and are presently stuck with a lemmon.

Imagine returning to the store for a: "Sorry, Sir you can't have your M8u back. It's been sold." Nobody forced the customers to do this gamble. There is the first 24 month experience to be read about in this forum when the new M8 came out, before taking such a decision.

 

On the week-end I saw 50X70cm prints, a size that I never need, taken with a M8.

 

I don't mind waiting for a black chrome 0.85 M8 with a saphyre LCD.