Future of Film

[plasticman]

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Used Phase One digital backs with Hasselblad V mount have become quite affordable nowadays...

 

Maybe you can explain in what way a Phase One digital back is a "film camera"?

 

What's the point of these comments really? A lot of the snobbery from newbie M9 owners is they think that film users can't afford the digital equivalent. But after trying and being disappointed with the M9, I paid more for my Black Paint M6 and my new 9000ED than an M9 costs.

 

We're not all digital wannabes, whatever you might think.

[Guest nafpie]

I paid more for my Black Paint M6 and my new 9000ED than an M9 costs.

 

Who is the snob here?

[plasticman]

Who is the snob here?

 

Oh come on - your sole contribution to this entire thread - time after time after repetitive time - is a constant stream of provocative and trolling comments.

 

Make one single positive and constructive contribution, I dare you.

 

I'm no way a snob about my cameras - but I'm sick of the implied contention that what we all really want is an M9 or a Phase One back - if we could only afford it.

 

Now then - say something constructive and prove you're not a troll in the next thirty minutes, or I'm blocking you.

[AbbeyFoto]

I just love using film, Chris

[Sailronin]

Paul,

Part of the decision process for the HB 501 was that medium format digital backs are coming down in price, always an option should availability of film become an issue.

[plasticman]

Now then - say something constructive and prove you're not a troll in the next thirty minutes, or I'm blocking you.

 

...and time's up.

[Guido]

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Maybe you can explain in what way a Phase One digital back is a "film camera"?

For me, the whole debate of "film vs. digital" basically is entirely obsolete. One can move back and forth between a digital back and a film back on a Hasselblad with ease, just as one can shoot film and digital on the same trip by carrying a digital M, a film M, and a common set of lenses. My tongue-in-cheek commented hinted at the possibility that while Sailronin stresses the fact that his new Hasselblad signifies a return to the film game, this same camera might actually turn out to be his next digital camera. Looking at medium and large format forums, you will find that many users there have no hesitation to embrace film and digital concurrently since both media can be used with the same body, thus leading to far less film/digital debate compared to the 35mm world.

[adan]

I paid more for my Black Paint M6 and my new 9000ED than an M9 costs.

 

As I've noted continually, differences between film and digital are irrelevant to whether (or for how long) film survives.

 

However, I'm bookmarking this quote just for those times when people complain about the cost of digital.

 

Can't have it both ways.

 

A lot of the snobbery from newbie M9 owners...

 

There's that "Tea Party" approach again - if you don't have any real argument to present, resort to snide characterizations.

 

I can respect that you, RedBaron, NikkorAIS, AbbeyFoto and others want to use film, like how film images, and aren't impressed by what the "mass market" prefers. I don't care what the mass market prefers either, one way or the other. I make my choices based on what works for me personally (which happens to be a very "analog" manual camera producing digital images (M9).)

 

But the bottom line is that Leica, Kodak, Fuji, Ilford etc etc. are not impressed by anyone's evangelical testimony - which is what "I just love using film" and similar comments amount to. They are impressed by $$$ €€€ £££ ¥¥¥.

 

Film has a future - exactly so long as it makes a profit.

[AlanG]

Film has a future - exactly so long as it makes a profit.

 

I guess at some point it will come down to what does it cost to make and how much do you have to sell to make a profit.

 

As these links will attest, there will always be some way to shoot film.

 

Filminator_01 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

Alternative Photography | How To Make Your Own photographic Film or Plates for Negative Work

 

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/01/19/how-photographic-film-is-made/

 

Of course if the big players get out of the game, it may be tough for a small operation to make anything like our best modern b/w materials.

[AlanG]

I have shots taken with 24 mega pixal Canon 5D2 that begin to "show there sqaures" with enlargements as small as 16-20. The truth is from what I have seen first hand 35 mm just dosnt cut it for huge prints.

 

I don't know why you are seeing the squares. Print drivers will interpolate the file on the fly to scale it up without showing pixels in order to make very large prints from any digital file. Of course this can't add any more detail. But when you enlarge film with a traditional enlarger, you aren't adding any detail either. You are just making the pieces of grain larger. Whereas with digital, enlargement smooths out the pixels. And if you scan film and then enlarge it in printing, you are also interpolating the digital file while scaling.

 

Huge display prints made from 35mm and MF digital capture are extremely common in marketing and advertising.

[AlanG]

My tongue-in-cheek commented hinted at the possibility that while Sailronin stresses the fact that his new Hasselblad signifies a return to the film game, this same camera might actually turn out to be his next digital camera. Looking at medium and large format forums, you will find that many users there have no hesitation to embrace film and digital concurrently since both media can be used with the same body, thus leading to far less film/digital debate compared to the 35mm world.

 

As the prices for used MF backs come down, I bet old Hassies will become more popular.

[pico]

As I've noted continually, differences between film and digital are irrelevant to whether (or for how long) film survives.

 

Your comments regarding digital have been on-spot and I appreciate them because I do digital for the day-job, and regardless I am a film person outside the regular job

 

I ask of you how much digital matters in certain fields such as large format work: images not intended simply for magazine reproduction. There are applications more demanding than our impoverished web stuff, and in fact, more demanding than regular print.

 

So far, only film can suffice for such applications.

[adan]

I guess my thinking was colored by the fact this is a Leica forum - and Leica doesn't make sheet-film cameras. Yet.

 

But, yes, large-format B&W photography is one place where silver imaging (could be plates or ambrotypes or whatever) almost certainly has an infinite future. Far less dependent on manufacturers (and thus volume), since pretty much anyone can hand-coat a piece of glass (or paper for printing). Not like dealing with miles of flexible film and/or paper backing, and cutting and punching machines (that all have to be operated with IR goggles).

 

In a sense, large-format workers have been shooting in a pre-Kodak "1870's" world all along. Except for some minor technicalities, there is not that much difference between how Matthew Brady (1863), W.H. Jackson (1880), Ansel Adams (1940) and Brett Weston (1975) worked and the materials they needed.

 

There's an artist here in Denver (Chris Perez) who shoots an M8 - and also coats his own 8 x 8 wet plates to make ambrotypes. Had an exhibit this summer showing work from both side by side.

 

Ambrotype | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Ambrotype - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[plasticman]

For me, the whole debate of "film vs. digital" basically is entirely obsolete. One can move back and forth between a digital back and a film back on a Hasselblad with ease, just as one can shoot film and digital on the same trip by carrying a digital M, a film M, and a common set of lenses. My tongue-in-cheek commented hinted at the possibility that while Sailronin stresses the fact that his new Hasselblad signifies a return to the film game, this same camera might actually turn out to be his next digital camera. Looking at medium and large format forums, you will find that many users there have no hesitation to embrace film and digital concurrently since both media can be used with the same body, thus leading to far less film/digital debate compared to the 35mm world.

 

Well as I've said many, many times before - I use digital too. I just find that film is better.

 

Anyways, I'd say this particular debate is played-out for now, for me in any case.

[Guest nafpie]

Now then - say something constructive and prove you're not a troll in the next thirty minutes, or I'm blocking you.

 

Sorry, but I really can't accept your ridiculous ultimatum. So do what you want to do.

 

See also #145.

[c.poulton]

No problem using a gelatine based product?

 

I'm not being judgemental in any way, just curious, as a failed vegetarian myself.

 

Andy,

 

No issues really as I don't eat fish and meat mainly for health reasons - although I have often wondered why a non-animal substitute has not been found - it must be cheaper than relying on 'old' gelatine technology?

 

BTW I also do not have any problems wearing leather...

[AlanG]

Andy,

 

No issues really as I don't eat fish and meat mainly for health reasons - although I have often wondered why a non-animal substitute has not been found - it must be cheaper than relying on 'old' gelatine technology?

 

BTW I also do not have any problems wearing leather...

 

I am not sure if anyone has tried to find a substitute for gelatin in film use. I doubt anything could be much cheaper when you consider how many cows are consumed for food each year.

[plasticman]

I am not sure if anyone has tried to find a substitute for gelatin in film use. I doubt anything could be much cheaper when you consider how many cows are consumed for food each year.

 

So true. The meat industry needs to put all those hooves, skin and hair somewhere - and I'd rather have it in film than in sweets, yoghurts, ice cream, medicine capsules, biscuits, margarine...

[pico]

I guess my thinking was colored by the fact this is a Leica forum - and Leica doesn't make sheet-film cameras. Yet.

 

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[Nicoleica]

How much gelatine is used in film production?

 

Is this different from food gelatine?

 

If my ageing memory serves me correctly, didn't Kodak use to claim that they 'used the whole cow' at their Rochester factory? Besides being the source of gelatine for the film base, the leather was used for straps, cases and coverings, and the best meat was used to feed the workers.