In-depth review of S2 & Sticking aperture blades on Leica 180mm f3.5 APO-Elmar

[glenerrolrd]

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Kurt

 

Have you tried LR3.2 ? The first with the adobe supplied profile and maybe camera specific improvements?

 

I do see the M9 look coming out in your shots....I noticed an improvement in LR 3 from the beta on my M9 files. And you images look similar ..very nice.

 

Oh No ..I am running out of excuses....but I am waiting for Photokina as you just never know.

 

Roger

[Googaliser]

Re. the in depth Digilloyd review.

 

I'm generally reluctant to pay for reviews, but I am right on the cusp of purchasing an S2 system after 6 months of very careful consideration - so whats $30 in the context of $30K.

 

I haven't read any of Lloyd's reviews before - but it was enough to stop me dead in my tracks. I was literally ready to transfer the money to the dealer this morning.

 

I will need to review the article in its entirety again (its very long) and compare with his other reviews - to get a feel for his style.

I have noted the pertinant points some of you have made re. his style and out of context conclusions.

 

My question is this: Do those of you with an S2 believe he had a bad unit (particularly viz. the auto- and back-focussing issues he experienced).

 

I don't have access to a loan or rental camera - and my demo sessions may not with hindsight been thorough enough. Using an M9 daily, and having used a H3D system for years and Nikon SLRs - my expectations (I thought) were realistic about where the S2 autofocus will fall (better than Hassy - not up to D3 standards). Digilloyd's experience was to pretty much write-off the AF functionality in anything other than perfect conditions if you wanted to make the most of the optical system (I used my H3D-50 handheld on travels and got stunnig results with AF).

Bad unit - or honest appraisal from an unbiased reviewer ?

I am caught in headlights... having felt I had researched this investment in the detail such a spend warrants.

 

Rgds

[Googaliser]

Just to add to my last post. AF is a key reason I am considering the S2. The resolution improvements alone do not warrant the ugrade from the M9 (for me at least). I need reliable, accurate AF in good lighting conditions. Speed of AF is not of great importance, and I use fast glass on an M9 or a D3s for available light.

 

(I tried to ditch Nikon altogether but the D3s/24 1.4 package lured me back - there are simply things it can do that L can't and probably shouldn't)

 

Rgds

[Constable]

Googaliser

 

I'm using both D3X/D3S combination with S2. More and more I am taking the S2 with me, using the D3S for low light work. The D3X was essential for macro until the 120 Summarit arrived. I hope to get some time t the weekend to do some comparisons of the S2/120 mm combination with D3X/Zeiss 100 pair.

 

If you are really looking for Nikon DSLR quality of autofocussing, you won't find it. The S2 is good (better than Hassy in my limited experience) but not foolproof.

 

I'm probably not overly concerned as I tend to manually focus for everything except fast moving birds (which is definitely not within the S2 remit).

 

Ed

[eronald]

I am a subscriber to Lloyd's site. I find the information there credible, and think that within his abilities and judgement he produces good tests. Also, he is not paranoid about piracy, like another pay site I know, and his pages are well laid out .

 

Also, I've found that Lloyd reacts to emails. Whether he exercises the features readers are interested in is another matter, but if we're going there it turns into a review of review sites

 

Edmund

[eronald]

A good dealer, faced with a cheque, should let you test the camera and lenses before you pay and leave.

I use a Nikon dealer in Germany who lets me test every lens I buy and when I asked whether this was an issue (because I know as you know that I'm a pain) he said no, a local pro had just come in too,tested 3 lenses, chosen one, and left, and people were coming in with testcharts (!).

 

What you may not know if you are not a Pro, is that every pro in a major city has a relationship with Nikon or Canon service, and at the slightest doubt has his cameras and lenses checked and adjusted eg. for focus.

 

Edmund

 

Re. the in depth Digilloyd review.

 

I'm generally reluctant to pay for reviews, but I am right on the cusp of purchasing an S2 system after 6 months of very careful consideration - so whats $30 in the context of $30K.

 

I haven't read any of Lloyd's reviews before - but it was enough to stop me dead in my tracks. I was literally ready to transfer the money to the dealer this morning.

 

I will need to review the article in its entirety again (its very long) and compare with his other reviews - to get a feel for his style.

I have noted the pertinant points some of you have made re. his style and out of context conclusions.

 

My question is this: Do those of you with an S2 believe he had a bad unit (particularly viz. the auto- and back-focussing issues he experienced).

 

I don't have access to a loan or rental camera - and my demo sessions may not with hindsight been thorough enough. Using an M9 daily, and having used a H3D system for years and Nikon SLRs - my expectations (I thought) were realistic about where the S2 autofocus will fall (better than Hassy - not up to D3 standards). Digilloyd's experience was to pretty much write-off the AF functionality in anything other than perfect conditions if you wanted to make the most of the optical system (I used my H3D-50 handheld on travels and got stunnig results with AF).

Bad unit - or honest appraisal from an unbiased reviewer ?

I am caught in headlights... having felt I had researched this investment in the detail such a spend warrants.

 

Rgds

[dfarkas]

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Re. the in depth Digilloyd review.

 

I'm generally reluctant to pay for reviews, but I am right on the cusp of purchasing an S2 system after 6 months of very careful consideration - so whats $30 in the context of $30K.

 

I haven't read any of Lloyd's reviews before - but it was enough to stop me dead in my tracks. I was literally ready to transfer the money to the dealer this morning.

 

I will need to review the article in its entirety again (its very long) and compare with his other reviews - to get a feel for his style.

I have noted the pertinant points some of you have made re. his style and out of context conclusions.

 

My question is this: Do those of you with an S2 believe he had a bad unit (particularly viz. the auto- and back-focussing issues he experienced).

 

I don't have access to a loan or rental camera - and my demo sessions may not with hindsight been thorough enough. Using an M9 daily, and having used a H3D system for years and Nikon SLRs - my expectations (I thought) were realistic about where the S2 autofocus will fall (better than Hassy - not up to D3 standards). Digilloyd's experience was to pretty much write-off the AF functionality in anything other than perfect conditions if you wanted to make the most of the optical system (I used my H3D-50 handheld on travels and got stunnig results with AF).

Bad unit - or honest appraisal from an unbiased reviewer ?

I am caught in headlights... having felt I had researched this investment in the detail such a spend warrants.

 

Rgds

 

I think that Lloyd's test camera had some kind of focus issue. I have personally found the S2's auto-focus to be one of the most accurate on the market, perhaps not up to the speed of the D3s, but without suffering from spurious AF errors. Why he didn't inquire with Leica or the dealer which provided him a loaner when he saw there was a problem is beyond me. As a tester/journalist, it is usually common practice to speak to a manufacturer with any technical issues or questions before publication.

 

Also, be aware that many of his observations on camera operation were based on previous firmware (even though newer firmware was available at the time of testing for quite some time and shipping on new cameras). Instead of changing the conclusions on each page after he installed the update, he merely added a footnote that the new firmware fixed said problem.

 

I'm a subscriber to Lloyd's site and have appreciated his approach in the past, but I would try to get your hands on an S2 so you can decide for yourself.

 

I use the S2 as my primary camera and just took it for two weeks to Germany. The camera is extremely easy to use hand-held and the AF is usually quick and dead-on accurate. I never use MF, as the AF is more accurate. I just posted images from the 120 Macro on my blog. All were shot using AF. Considering the DOF is so thin, if the AF was off just a little bit, I would not have gotten usable results. And, most shots were shot in a really annoying breeze, adding further to the challenge.

 

Best of luck.

 

David

[Googaliser]

A good dealer, faced with a cheque, should let you test the camera and lenses before you pay and leave.

I use a Nikon dealer in Germany who lets me test every lens I buy and when I asked whether this was an issue (because I know as you know that I'm a pain) he said no, a local pro had just come in too,tested 3 lenses, chosen one, and left, and people were coming in with testcharts (!).

 

What you may not know if you are not a Pro, is that every pro in a major city has a relationship with Nikon or Canon service, and at the slightest doubt has his cameras and lenses checked and adjusted eg. for focus.

 

Edmund

 

Thanks. I tested a couple of pre-production S2s and also an early production model. My focus was mainly on tethered usability at the time. I have since moved from London to Hong Kong and my needs have also changed. There are no S2s available for testing here - so I will import the camera from a US dealer (much cheaper also). Thus - I have no way of checking the specific issues that now concern me post the Digilloyd article.

 

Rgds

[Googaliser]

I think that Lloyd's test camera had some kind of focus issue. I have personally found the S2's auto-focus to be one of the most accurate on the market, perhaps not up to the speed of the D3s, but without suffering from spurious AF errors. Why he didn't inquire with Leica or the dealer which provided him a loaner when he saw there was a problem is beyond me. As a tester/journalist, it is usually common practice to speak to a manufacturer with any technical issues or questions before publication.

 

Also, be aware that many of his observations on camera operation were based on previous firmware (even though newer firmware was available at the time of testing for quite some time and shipping on new cameras). Instead of changing the conclusions on each page after he installed the update, he merely added a footnote that the new firmware fixed said problem.

 

I'm a subscriber to Lloyd's site and have appreciated his approach in the past, but I would try to get your hands on an S2 so you can decide for yourself.

 

I use the S2 as my primary camera and just took it for two weeks to Germany. The camera is extremely easy to use hand-held and the AF is usually quick and dead-on accurate. I never use MF, as the AF is more accurate. I just posted images from the 120 Macro on my blog. All were shot using AF. Considering the DOF is so thin, if the AF was off just a little bit, I would not have gotten usable results. And, most shots were shot in a really annoying breeze, adding further to the challenge.

 

Best of luck.

 

David

 

David, thank you. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear. Indeed, I have been following you experiences - hence the syntax error when I read the Digilloyd review.

 

Time to bite the bullet....

[Googaliser]

This is proving to be such a hard decision. For some reason purchasing the H3D was so much easier. Maybe it was the modularity/upgrade paths that comforted me. Perhaps the relative abundance of secondhand HC lenses (at steep discount to retail).

Or the comfort that as Hasselblad's only real business the future of the H line-up was pretty secure. I don't think I have ever agonised over a purchase as long as I have this one.

At least waiting until now - I have found a mint used set-up at 20% discount to retail. Even still - this level of investment competes with things like cars, school fees, house renovations. Crazy game. I don't make my main living from photography - but for those of you that do - I can only imagine the dilema (uness you are in the rarified atmosphere of the elite). So I will stop moaning - just needed to vent somewhere.

 

Rgds

[plevyadophy]

I think that Lloyd's test camera had some kind of focus issue. I have personally found the S2's auto-focus to be one of the most accurate on the market, perhaps not up to the speed of the D3s, but without suffering from spurious AF errors. Why he didn't inquire with Leica or the dealer which provided him a loaner when he saw there was a problem is beyond me. As a tester/journalist, it is usually common practice to speak to a manufacturer with any technical issues or questions before publication.

 

Also, be aware that many of his observations on camera operation were based on previous firmware (even though newer firmware was available at the time of testing for quite some time and shipping on new cameras). Instead of changing the conclusions on each page after he installed the update, he merely added a footnote that the new firmware fixed said problem.

 

I'm a subscriber to Lloyd's site and have appreciated his approach in the past, but I would try to get your hands on an S2 so you can decide for yourself.

 

I use the S2 as my primary camera and just took it for two weeks to Germany. The camera is extremely easy to use hand-held and the AF is usually quick and dead-on accurate. I never use MF, as the AF is more accurate. I just posted images from the 120 Macro on my blog. All were shot using AF. Considering the DOF is so thin, if the AF was off just a little bit, I would not have gotten usable results. And, most shots were shot in a really annoying breeze, adding further to the challenge.

 

Best of luck.

 

David

 

Now whilst it is nice and cosy and all for reviewers to whisper to manufacturers and/or dealers behind closed doors if they find a problem, and for these problems to be fixed pre-review, I think DigiLloyd did the right thing in taking the camera as is, testing and publishing his report warts and all.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how far too many photo enthusiasts (including experienced writers) take leave of their senses when they pick up a camera; they somehow forget how the rest of the real world works and expect things to be way different for photography. When cars are reviewed, well certainly in Europe, ( a consumer item that is generally more expensive than photo gear and of far greater risk to users and third parties), reviewers are not generally in the habit of having hush-hush discussions with manufacturers; they get the kit, test it and report their findings even if it causes embarrasment to the manufacturer.

 

Given the excessive price of the S2, and Leica's boastful charm offensive (e.g. that recent publicity stunt where they invited a number of journos over to Germany, and their bragging about their superior hand assembly and rigourous checks) I think it wholly appropriate for DigiLloyd (and all reviewers) to simply get the S2 kit and test it. If any errrors are found, report it. The camera costs a fortunate (excessively so in my view) and for that money (accompanied by Leica's boasting) many (and I certainly do) expect perfection. Testing as DigiLloyd did (i.e. without buddy buddy hush hush cover-ups behind closed doors) allows the public to see how really good the Leica quality control really is. All that reporting errors to manufacturers in advance of publication does is allow a product to get an unjustified favourable review (and keep fanboys happy); and besides, a premium product ought to be "beta" tested well in advance of a production run and not during a review process (talking of which, it amazes me that the fancy colour info display is as good as useless in daylight; surely at the asking price for the camera Leica could have offorded to send their "teaboy" out to the backyard for two minutes to examine the display in daylight?!!)

[Guest guy_mancuso]

When Jack and I reviewed the S2 back in December we did have a sticking 180 lens aperture blade as in the studio under lighting we noticed exposures where off on some frames as we where shooting side by side with a DF and P40+. Given we where using loaner gear that goes out to reviewers we did not think much of it since it is not a production lens that is going to customers. We have seen this many times with pre release gear, sure it is mentioned to the OEM and usually like a back for instance it is not final firmware so these things are expected to some degree. On the S2 I believe we did mention it in public but if not certainly was not to deceive anyone since these pre production units never hit the streets for sale and everyone and there brother has pretty much beaten them up as well. Now little surprising to here a production unit may have this if that is the case but I'm sure Lloyd used the same lens we had. They simply just pass the same gear around. You can call it whatever you well but I'm not going to protect anyone in a review period. If something sucks i will say so and have.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Actually we did mention it looking back at the review

 

* We noticed some weird exposure anomalies during the studio captures. Exposures seemed to vary by over a stop between pops with the S2, running from the proper exposure to nearly a stop over. Cameras were on manual, ISO 100 for P, 160 for the S2, shutter speeds were set to 1/125th, and the strobes are Guy's normal Elinchrom units and known to be very stable in their output. We did vary the total light output and/or aperture to accommodate the S2's ISO difference. We switched between the S2, P40+ and P65+ regularly, and only had this anomaly with the S2, and virtually in every set from it. My only guess is the aperture was sticking on stop-down, but then we never noticed that behavior when shooting under natural light after the studio shoot. So a question mark.

 

Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com - The GetDPI Photography Forums