Question to S2 users on raw conversion

[GMB]

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This is a question to those who have real experience with the S2, i.e. who own (or owned) the system and shot with it for a while.

 

Both on this forum as well as on the Getdpi forum, there has been discussion about the quality of the raw conversion. Several posters, the opinion of many of which I highly respect, have argued that the raw conversion (including in LR3) is to standard and does not produce use the full potential of the files. They described the files as flat, in particular compared to files produced by Phase with C1 and Hassy with Phocus, or as requiring much more work to get a decent result.

 

Surprisingly, actual users of the system—and I know that there are quite a few out there—did not participate very actively in the discussion. So I am soliciting their comments and views here.

 

BTW, I will test the S2 next weekend, hopefully together with a P40+ from phase. I saw a few outdoor portrait shots from the S2 which I found quite pleasing (I liked to look of the glass). A dealer also showed me a few Phase shots (mostly portraits which artificial light), where I did not like the skin tones (almost leathery), but that may be due to post processing. I would use the system mostly for landscape, travel, and people with natural light (i.e., no or little studio or flash photography).

 

Any comments much appreciated.

[gogopix]

Well, that will be a good side by side...

I tried S2 with P65+ and did not have the time or patience for setting up for same shot. Good luck.

 

As for the GetDPI comments and crew, some have considerable LR experience and I sent a few raw files. It is clear that improvement is not only possible but beneficial. However, no basic S2 raw processing has emerged.

 

Also be careful... there are more biases amongst the posters than in 1940's tires ! You hear 'flat', 'oversharpened' 'overexposed' thrown around. IQ is VERY subjective (a lot like pornography in that way :-)

 

But Marc, Mark, Peter and David (Dalelabs) each took a cut. MOST interesting was the range in what people thought was better than the LR "AUTO" defaults.

 

For me, David's was the most neutral and he has the most experience. Others have keen eyes and might produce more interesting results.

 

chacun a son gout

 

Victor

[Arif]

I have some handheld shots posted on my blog (Arif's Journeys ) of some hydrangeas taken last week which have very little work done in ACR. I am happy with the lenses/processing but maybe it is because I am coming from a D3x. If it doesn't rain this weekend, then I will go out and try the Hasselblad 110/2 lens to see how it draws on the S2.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Well, that will be a good side by side...

I tried S2 with P65+ and did not have the time or patience for setting up for same shot. Good luck.

 

As for the GetDPI comments and crew, some have considerable LR experience and I sent a few raw files. It is clear that improvement is not only possible but beneficial. However, no basic S2 raw processing has emerged.

 

Also be careful... there are more biases amongst the posters than in 1940's tires ! You hear 'flat', 'oversharpened' 'overexposed' thrown around. IQ is VERY subjective (a lot like pornography in that way :-)

 

But Marc, Mark, Peter and David (Dalelabs) each took a cut. MOST interesting was the range in what people thought was better than the LR "AUTO" defaults.

 

For me, David's was the most neutral and he has the most experience. Others have keen eyes and might produce more interesting results.

 

chacun a son gout

 

Victor

 

 

Victor the only thing biased is what is between your ears. Obviously you don't want to listen and only believe what you want to hear. Typical fanboy hearing. You want to buy one so go do it than . Why in the world would you want to listen to people that have far more experience in digital than you. Your comments because you do not agree makes anyone else's comments of being biased in your mind when you may not be sure yourself of what you are doing. Are you really sure you want to go around and accuse people of being biased. Your talking about people's reputation here so I would answer this one very very carefully.

 

If anyone said anything about a Hassy or Phase file in a bad way you would not even comment.

[stunsworth]

Victor the only thing biased is what is between your ears. Obviously you don't want to listen and only believe what you want to hear. Typical fanboy hearing.

 

I'm guessing that if someone said something like that to you, you'd be off to the mods faster than a rat down a drain.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Bring it on BIg Steve. Let's see what you got there. The shadow follows. So what is it Steve you just looking for shit or what. It never fails to amaze me how you constantly look for something out of 8 k posts you look for the one to make someone look bad. Never have you come up with something that actually addresses what is being talked about. So Steve here you go what is the best Raw converter for a S2 , have you held one , have you shot one, have you even processed a file and do you even know how to in C1, LR, Aperture, Raw developer that you can actually make a realistic comment in this thread that makes any sense at all so to help people actually try to figure it all out to see what is the best route and what are the best practices to use to actually make a decent file. I figured not

 

Steve when the facts are presented confirmed and acknowledged by other experts and you still don't want to hear the beating of the drums than your death in the ears.

 

BTW are you a mod. and how would you even know what the hell I say or do.

 

The rest of what I have to say to you I will leave you with guessing. Not worth one more moment of my time

[stunsworth]

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No I'm not a mod, and no I don't know the best raw convertor for the S2. What I was commenting on was your rudeness when anyone disagrees with you or fails to take your advice. A trait that you seem only too willing to demonstrate.

[GMB]

Victor, Guy, Steve--Just had a bad day at the office (actually still have). A bit disappointed to see that this thread turned to a fight, which actually should better be solved by PMs than in public .

 

As I mentioned, I do value and respect the opinion of Guy and others who opined on this issue in various ways and on various occasions. I had just hoped that someone who uses the S2 would share his/her experience as I am interested in the beast and try to make a decision. Hopefully, we can get this on track but I would not be surprised if real users are turned off by these fights.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Not rude at all. He has been chomping on this thing for months , he wants one and he should get one but the evidence is clearly there and he knows it. I could care less if anyone takes my advice or not. Not my money but come at me and say I am biased or my findings are not to your liking because you think it is biased from my end than i will defend what I write, review and state on what i see and clearly he admittedly says he is a fan boy. I teach this stuff and i do know what is going on if it is not presented clearly enough than say so . Do NOT accuse me of anything but fair reporting. I do NOT see anyones checks going in my bank account from any of these OEM's

 

Steve get your facts in order before you comment on me , my comments come directly in response of what is being said too me and I never say anything first. Let's make that perfectly clear as far as you are concerned your the rudest person and interfering little shit that I have ever met and I will freely admit that everyday of the week. I have the right to not like one person in my life and you are it. So let's make this perfectly clear stay away from me since all you ever do is follow people around and comment on them and what they post. Stick to real facts and since you obviously don't have any and never do than your the rude person for getting involved on something you clearly have no clue on.

 

To the forum this guy follows me around like a puppy dog trying to impress himself by looking cool. There is a word for this behavior it's called a troll.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Victor, Guy, Steve--Just had a bad day at the office (actually still have). A bit disappointed to see that this thread turned to a fight, which actually should better be solved by PMs than in public .

 

As I mentioned, I do value and respect the opinion of Guy and others who opined on this issue in various ways and on various occasions. I had just hoped that someone who uses the S2 would share his/her experience as I am interested in the beast and try to make a decision. Hopefully, we can get this on track but I would not be surprised if real users are turned off by these fights.

 

Steve had a bad day at the office , oh let me feel sorry for him. I have a wife that has two cancers 4 surgeries and doing chemo as we speak and her mother living here with stage 4 cancer. Let's talk about having a bad day huh

 

Give me a break. The guy needs to stay out of peoples business which he cannot do.

 

I'm done here. Need to shoot a gig

[stunsworth]

I don't think I was the one being referred to as having a bad day at the office.

 

Hope everything works out for the best for your wife and mother in law.

[GMB]

Steve had a bad day at the office , oh let me feel sorry for him. I have a wife that has two cancers 4 surgeries and doing chemo as we speak and her mother living here with stage 4 cancer. Let's talk about having a bad day huh

 

Give me a break. The guy needs to stay out of peoples business which he cannot do.

 

I'm done here. Need to shoot a gig

 

Jus to be clear:

 

I meant to say that I had a bad day at the office and that I was a bit disappointed about the turn this thread as taken. I have no idea what Steve did today and I did not and do not want to take sides in the Steve/Guy fight.

 

Good luck to your wife and mother in law and enjoy the gig.

[c6gowin]

Why so sensitive Guy? Victor did not single you out - he was making a general statement about biases. Everyone is biased to some extent (about more than cameras) and there is no getting around that. It is a natural thing and there is nothing wrong with that. The difference in people is that some can remain objective even with their biases. Victor's advice was simply to be aware of those biases.

 

GMB, I hate this thread disintegrated so rapidly. Unfortunately and for reasons I don't understand, most threads about the S2 attract a few very vocal detractors who have a way of changing the tone of a thread so negative that I don't want to be part of it. That is sad because it really negatively impacts the exchange of information between S2 owners and potential owners. I am trying harder to ignore the detractors and make a point of posting about my experience with the S2 more often, but it is not as fun as it could be.

 

I contributed to the thread you refer to over at getdpi so I am not sure I can add much more here but I will try. You are wise to compare the S2 to other cameras. My comparison determined the S2 was right for ME. It may or may not be right for you.

 

Some people say the lack of dedicated raw processing software for the S2 is a bad thing whereas I see it as an advantage for the S2. The S2 and lens designs are such that dedicated software is not necessary. Both Phase and Hassy require manufacturer specific dedicated software to correct deficiencies in their lenses. Those that like the dedicated software approach will say that is the only way to extract the absolute best image from the camera lens combination. They also say that Leica's approach in using a generic software like Lightroom leaves something behind because it can't extract every last detail like a manufacturer specific software can. That may be true, but in my comparisons and to my eye the S2/LR combination was at least on par with the Phase/Hassy/dedicated software combination. In my opinion, the S2 produces a more natural looking image. I actually prefer the Leaf back/images over the Phase/Hassy, but the Leaf back was out because I didn't like the plastic feel and viewfinder of the Phase body. I liked the Hassy body better than the Phase body. I expect the S2/LR combination to get better over time as better profiles are developed. I much prefer the user experience of the S2 over the Phase/Hassy competition and there is no way the Phase/Hassy user experience can get better over time without buying a new body and back. Simply put, I felt the ergonomics and user experience of the S2 was more important than the minuscule differences in image quality between the offerings. Oh, one other thing, I prefer the 3:2 aspect ratio of the S2 over the 4:3 ratio of the Phase/Hassy.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Mark I could care less one way or the other. The problem is some of the things Victor mentioned are FACTS not opinion. Can't change a FACT into a opinion. Facts also eliminate any bias. I have NONE and would flip my mothers grave if I thought I would get better images from something else. I have zero regard for a name or a dot

 

Also I COMPLETELY disagree with you on the software issue. You been feed a load of nonsense my friend from someone that has something to gain. That is your choice. With that I am so completely over the S2 and all conversations with it. I have zero interest . Good luck in whatever you all do with regard to the S2 . You want advice send me a e-mail.

[glenerrolrd]

This is a question to those who have real experience with the S2, i.e. who own (or owned) the system and shot with it for a while.

 

Both on this forum as well as on the Getdpi forum, there has been discussion about the quality of the raw conversion. Several posters, the opinion of many of which I highly respect, have argued that the raw conversion (including in LR3) is to standard and does not produce use the full potential of the files. They described the files as flat, in particular compared to files produced by Phase with C1 and Hassy with Phocus, or as requiring much more work to get a decent result.

 

Surprisingly, actual users of the system—and I know that there are quite a few out there—did not participate very actively in the discussion. So I am soliciting their comments and views here.

 

BTW, I will test the S2 next weekend, hopefully together with a P40+ from phase. I saw a few outdoor portrait shots from the S2 which I found quite pleasing (I liked to look of the glass). A dealer also showed me a few Phase shots (mostly portraits which artificial light), where I did not like the skin tones (almost leathery), but that may be due to post processing. I would use the system mostly for landscape, travel, and people with natural light (i.e., no or little studio or flash photography).

 

Any comments much appreciated.

 

I think you asked a very good question . I have shot the S2 but better I saw the files shot by David Farkes at Dale compared to the DMR , the HB and the Sinar. All processed in LR very quickly. I shot an M9 and processed my own files in Lr3. Not ideal.

 

The DMR files looked almost like a finished product ..the S2 files were flat like selecting a low contrast profile. Same for the HB..the Sinar were better. I had the M9 files so I could check colors ,contrast etc..at least I had a reference point . The sky was brilliant blue in south florida ..that one I know.

 

With Phase and HB you get a proprietary software product (C1 or Phocus) that is finely tuned to their cameras and their lenses. C1 is on version 5 for example. The profiles and development presets are amazing ....doesnt take much to get a professional looking conversion. They both get pretty great results . This is the standard that many MF experts expect .

 

The S2 isn t there yet . Leica moved away from C1 (who knows the real reason) and LR3 which is a major improvement has no S2 profile. Thus the discussion typically degenerates into "it shouldn t be this difficult" . This is a major deficiency in the S2 as it stands today. Understandable but nevertheless enough to cause me to pause. I couldn t quite get a good result from Victor s File . But we saw this issue with the M9 and a forum member put out a profile ....large improvement immediately . Maybe the S2 will follow ?

 

If you get to test the S2 ...keep asking about what profiles and presets they recommend in LR3 (as its the preferred conversion software). And if you get anything please share it .

[c6gowin]

...Also I COMPLETELY disagree with you on the software issue...

 

I respect your opinion, but that doesn't change mine. We just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

...You been feed a load of nonsense my friend from someone that has something to gain. That is your choice.

 

This is where you are mistaken. I spent a lot of time and money traveling to various locations to try different cameras before deciding on the S2. I made my choice with eyes wide open and did not get fed a load of nonsense (at least not from Leica folks). My choice is clearly not the same one you would have made, but I bought the camera for me not you. Our needs and wants are different.

 

On a serious note, I hope your wife and mother-in-law get better soon. This camera stuff is nothing compared to what they are going through.

[andybarton]

Do we think that perhaps we could return to a civilised discussion on this thread, please?

 

Thanks

[GMB]

 

GMB, I hate this thread disintegrated so rapidly. Unfortunately and for reasons I don't understand, most threads about the S2 attract a few very vocal detractors who have a way of changing the tone of a thread so negative that I don't want to be part of it. That is sad because it really negatively impacts the exchange of information between S2 owners and potential owners. I am trying harder to ignore the detractors and make a point of posting about my experience with the S2 more often, but it is not as fun as it could be. .

 

I agree that that is unfortunate and I really do not understand why anyone can get so emotional about these things. I also appreciate your willingness to participate and stick your neck out. It really seems that the S2 owners are eitther too busy shooting or otherwise have no interest to participate in such debate, which is a pitty (I cannot imagine that all of them are too emberraced to participate because they recoginzed that they make a mistake).

 

Interestingly, on the other forum I received PMs by people who shared certain views but did not want to go public. I sort of can understand that.

 

Georg

[dfarkas]

I agree that that is unfortunate and I really do not understand why anyone can get so emotional about these things. I also appreciate your willingness to participate and stick your neck out. It really seems that the S2 owners are eitther too busy shooting or otherwise have no interest to participate in such debate, which is a pitty (I cannot imagine that all of them are too emberraced to participate because they recoginzed that they make a mistake).

 

Interestingly, on the other forum I received PMs by people who shared certain views but did not want to go public. I sort of can understand that.

 

Georg

 

Georg,

 

I've posted both my C1 ICC profile and custom user preset for LR on my FTP site here:

 

Profiles for S2

 

Please feel free to download them and let me know what you think when you have a chance to play with some DNGs.

 

Best,

 

David

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[GMB]

Georg,

 

I've posted both my C1 ICC profile and custom user preset for LR on my FTP site here:

 

Profiles for S2

 

Please feel free to download them and let me know what you think when you have a chance to play with some DNGs.

 

Best,

 

David

 

David,

 

Many thanks! I'll let you know.

 

BTW, I received today the new LFI with some portrait shots with the 120mm. Wow!

 

Georg