Sony NEX 5 vs Leica x1

[h00ligan]

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Steve Huff has posted a raw vs jpg comparison.. it's a quick peek with the NEX & 18-55 kit lens. Definitely worth a read.

 

Again, it seems the kit lens has wide variance in quality - the sharpness falloff is drastic imo. Check out the article, as always it's a good 'real world results' kind of thing.

 

Sony NEX-5 RAW vs JPEG using Aperture 3.03 | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS

[barjohn]

Something that needs to be explained. If the X1 IQ is so good that many of you will put up with a long list of shortcomings, why are so many for sale in the used market? I counted 5 on this site alone and 7 used ones on eBay. Conversely, a mass produced camera like the NEX 5 shows no used cameras for sale on eBay and Sony is sold out in worldwide production with its poor IQ (at least that is what is stated on this web site).

[ChiILX1]

Something that needs to be explained. If the X1 IQ is so good that many of you will put up with a long list of shortcomings, why are so many for sale in the used market? I counted 5 on this site alone and 7 used ones on eBay. Conversely, a mass produced camera like the NEX 5 shows no used cameras for sale on eBay and Sony is sold out in worldwide production with its poor IQ (at least that is what is stated on this web site).

 

Maybe it's because the X1 has been out for a YEAR and the NEX series has only been out for a little over a MONTH? Haha jeez...

 

Another factor- people were selling their X1's used because they were getting $500 more than they paid at the least, as of a couple weeks ago. Even if you are happy you sell it at that rate since you may have a second camera :-)

 

some people even bought theirs for $1300 from Europe when the exchange rate was low and then turned around and sold them in the US for $2600!

 

That's hardly a knock on the camera!

[ChiILX1]

What is everyone even discussing?

 

Here is the list of CONS from dpreview. How many cons are just frustrating EVEN TO READ! I get a headache reading all of the things IN YOUR WAY of actually taking photos! "This isn't available when you do this, such and such is difficult to change, no control of x and y," it's so bad that they actually list as a PRO having actual aperture control in one particular camera mode! What a joke!

 

I'll take my manual control dials and actually be involved in my photography thank you very much! I can't stand fumbling through menus- I can't IMAGINE having a user guide popping up on my camera (something they list as a PRO) or having settings appear and disappear, I wouldn't be able to put up with different modes just to get to basic camera functions.

 

Capturing the moment is rare enough with 2 dials and a shutter- I couldn't imagine with all of this nonsense.

 

Conclusion - Cons

 

High ISO capability (a major advantage of its large sensor) unavailable in iAuto mode

Constant overexposure of images wastes highlight capabilities (and no exposure compensation in iAuto mode)

Lack of function menu makes settings changes in PASM modes unnecessarily long-winded

Consumes battery very quickly if you use the screen a lot between shots

Poor shot-to-shot times (if you want to see a post-shot review image)

No consistency of function or navigation between iAuto and PASM modes

'Bkground Defocus' feature encourages the use of wrong settings

JPEG sharpening doesn't make the most of the camera's capabilities

Very limited video control (no aperture control or exposure lock)

Screw-on flash awkward to attach

Screen very difficult to see in anything more than moderately bright light

Auto HDR mode only available in PASM modes

Live histogram unavailable when making exposure changes

Magnified live view resets to center position after each shot (problematic for portraits)

A lot of the 'Shoot tips' only teach you how to use iAuto mode

Cheapest bundle (which only provides the 16mm lens) is not a good combination for beginners

[barjohn]

I must say that you guys really make me laugh. First off, I list current sales and you all discuss sales from months ago by people looking to take advantage of short supply for a quick buck. Then the defense of the X1's shortcomings is the DPR list of the NEX's shortcomings as they perceived them but I was discussing "known by the user community" shortcomings, not one reviewer's perception. I would venture to say that the DPR reviewer's list doesn't match the general user communities. As to the length of time they have been available (not announced), the NEX 5 first became available in Japan and Europe in June (2 & 1/2 months ago) and generally available world wide in mid July about a month ago. The X1 became available in dribbles in Europe around February (if memory serves me) about 7 & 1/2 months ago and more generally worldwide available around July, about a month ago. I guess we can surmise that the ones that got rid of them early did so because they were smart and made a profit and the ones doing so now at a loss are doing so because they are stupid.

[ChiILX1]

I must say that you guys really make me laugh. First off, I list current sales and you all discuss sales from months ago by people looking to take advantage of short supply for a quick buck. Then the defense of the X1's shortcomings is the DPR list of the NEX's shortcomings as they perceived them but I was discussing "known by the user community" shortcomings, not one reviewer's perception. I would venture to say that the DPR reviewer's list doesn't match the general user communities. As to the length of time they have been available (not announced), the NEX 5 first became available in Japan and Europe in June (2 & 1/2 months ago) and generally available world wide in mid July about a month ago. The X1 became available in dribbles in Europe around February (if memory serves me) about 7 & 1/2 months ago and more generally worldwide available around July, about a month ago. I guess we can surmise that the ones that got rid of them early did so because they were smart and made a profit and the ones doing so now at a loss are doing so because they are stupid.

 

1) I didn't list sales from months ago I said weeks- I know of 100% profitable turns from 2 weeks ago

2) Who's defending the X1's shortcomings? I certainly didn't- I didn't even list any.

3) The reviewers critiques of the menus and controls are simple facts not opinion- x item can't be accessed in y location, can't control these basic camera functions etc etc. Those are BIG deals not some picky persons eccentric opinion.

4) Supply has sucked sure but the X1 has been out in small bunches since the 3rd quarter 2009

5) Point taken that it hasn't been available massively till February but you are still talking about a 5-6 month difference. A lot can happen in 6 months to a purchaser in a bad economy, or any person who consumes goods with "latest and greatest" motivations.

 

If we rated cameras by the number being sold on ebay I think we would have some pretty wacky results. You can buy used underwear on eBay for $500 and buy lost Ansell Adams negatives for $45 in a garage sale. What does that tell you?

[barjohn]

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It tells you not to take life so seriously, it was only a question that you failed to adequately answer. Forgetting eBay for a moment and only looking at this forum, that is a lot of X1's (which are still in short supply) for sale. It looks like it did when the M9 came out and users were selling M8s. My question is do these folks know something the rest of you don't or were they dissatisfied with the camera's performance? Maybe a few became cash strapped since making the purchase but generally forum members here can afford M8s, M9s and X1s and distress sales are the exception rather than the rule.

[Ecaton]

Something that needs to be explained. If the X1 IQ is so good that many of you will put up with a long list of shortcomings, why are so many for sale in the used market? I counted 5 on this site alone and 7 used ones on eBay. Conversely, a mass produced camera like the NEX 5 shows no used cameras for sale on eBay and Sony is sold out in worldwide production with its poor IQ (at least that is what is stated on this web site).

 

The X1 might have some warts and weaknesses. Where it really matters, though, in the IQ department, it runs circles around the NEX.

The NEX sensor might be good, who knows, but a camera and its output are only as good as its weakest part is. In the case of the NEX, that's the glass.

[Guest douglasf13]

In A, S or M mode, the only thing you need to make a couple of clicks to access is ISO (which is silly.) Everything else is available with external control (if you shoot raw.) The more people that buy a NEX, the more that realize the control shortcomings are exaggerated.

[barjohn]

The X1 might have some warts and weaknesses. Where it really matters, though, in the IQ department, it runs circles around the NEX.

The NEX sensor might be good, who knows, but a camera and its output are only as good as its weakest part is. In the case of the NEX, that's the glass.

 

Ecaton, are you a politician? I thought you were a photographer. You answer a question like a politician. Change the subject or answer the question you want to ask yourself rather than the question that was asked. :D

[h00ligan]

John, I've tried to be more impartial.. but there's absolutely no comparison with the x1 vs nex kit lens. Maybe the 'good' copies, but I've seen enough mixed results to think that the benefit of nex would be in an adaptor and real lenses. The NEX lenses just don't look good. I posted a link to SHP at the top of this page... the sharpness falloff is extreme. Maybe he got a bad copy, but there are plenty that look just as bad. Look at the right side of the tree shot (full size).

 

I'm not saying the nex isn't good, I'm sure there are people out there with great kit lenses, but it really seems to be 50/50. I'm still interested in it, for a different purpose - and wish I had the option of a nex 5 body only. I'm not sure where the demand would be if I chose to sell on the kit lens.. would it be best to get the wide angle or zoom for aftermarket sale? You seem to be in the know for the whole selling on thing.

[phancj]

Hi Phancj,

 

Show us your camera(s). Since you seem to read so much and everything about digital lightboxes, I'm definitely interested to learn what your educated purchase decisions were.

 

I dun profess to know a lot, just sharing thoughts like everyone else here. I am still using my trusty old D300 which I bought since launch, and most of it for my work which involves producing point-of-sale materials so i use mostly macro (Nikkor micro 105 and 60). The X1 I bought for travel, and truth is it is so good for that and everything else apart from its weak macro.

 

Actually a friend told me about sony developing technologies so I read up a bit to see if there could be some new cameras coming up, always trying new stuff like any geek.

 

I am lucky to have so many shops near me that sell cameras so I am spoilt for choice when it comes to testing any new cameras that come out. Camera salespeople and me spend some time when we are fre discussing and toying cameras. I work in a mall so when it is less busy thats what guys in the malls do.

 

SO no, I am no expert but yes, I do play with different cameras quite a bit. Much as I love the looks of the nex and its interchangeable lens it didnt do anything for me. In fact, I booked a nex with my friends but after trying it with me the first day they were also of the opinion my X1 is a lot better.

 

I think it is funny in forums when we try to share our opinions a lot of aggression occurs (not referring to you). On the other hand, there are guys who make wild claims and all on both sides without any concrete proof (prime example iso 500 shots that looks like 400??!!) Put it bluntly in terms of technical specs most if not all of us are no sensor technology or camera experts but we can all get feedback from all parts of the world(BTW I live in South East Asia). I feel strongly I must say my piece on the Nex as right now, those who buy it expecting great image quality out of the box will be sorely disappointed. I also think to be able to use other lenses but losing AF sucks. Bear in mind I had high hopes when the nex was announced and was more than ready to buy it for my wife and myself and sell the X1 if it was any good for me. Unfortunately it wasn't. Which is not to say that it can be great for others. And no, the X1 is far from perfect, but it is the best for me right now given its size and image quality.

[phancj]

lol. That PDF you posted explains how Sony used CCD to get them to a certain point (exceed film quality,) and now they are developing CMOS to go beyond that (exceed human vision.) You're right though, Sony does still use CCD...in their lowest end DSLRs like the A230.

 

Again, of course the X1 has better IQ than NEX with the kit lenses. There is no question of that. I'm simply saying the differences are negated when alternative glass is used. If you sat an X1 and a NEX-5 (with a CV35 1.4 mounted) on a table in front of me and told me to take one, regardless of price, I'd pick the NEX for my uses. This isn't a price thing for me. Considering the build and lens quality of the X1, I don't find it considerably overpriced, although it does make the NEX-5 look like a bargain. If the X2 has a 50 1.4 equivalent and some updated components (like a better LCD,) I may very well consider it. My posts aren't knocking the X1, but, rather, praising the NEX and its abilities.

 

Steve is correct that the M9 has special microlenses, but some of that disadvantage is negated due to the NEX's smaller sensor size. m4/3 still gets in trouble because of the outrageous thickness of the filter pack on the sensor. With NEX some M lenses definitely have an issue if they have a very short back focus, so it is on a case by case basis.

 

Sorry, but if I understood you correctly earlier you compared the nex to the M8/M9, not just the X1. So if you were to choose the M9 vs the nex, which will you choose?

 

The X1 has no interchangeable lens so some love it, others hate it. But since you were of the opinion that the nex could be a M contender, and that pricing wasnt any issue, I was merely stating the fact that price IS a big consideration for most of us. The nex with great lenses will be in the ballpark of the x1 price, but the M9 is in a total league. Price matters to most of us, maybe not so much to you. I work hard so I can spoil myself with nice geek toys but I have been pondering the purchase of the M9 for some time (the hefty pricing does matter!), and havent bought it yet. Still waiting for photokina!

 

The X1, meanwhile is a great performer that fits most of my needs.

[phancj]

I must say that you guys really make me laugh. First off, I list current sales and you all discuss sales from months ago by people looking to take advantage of short supply for a quick buck. Then the defense of the X1's shortcomings is the DPR list of the NEX's shortcomings as they perceived them but I was discussing "known by the user community" shortcomings, not one reviewer's perception. I would venture to say that the DPR reviewer's list doesn't match the general user communities. As to the length of time they have been available (not announced), the NEX 5 first became available in Japan and Europe in June (2 & 1/2 months ago) and generally available world wide in mid July about a month ago. The X1 became available in dribbles in Europe around February (if memory serves me) about 7 & 1/2 months ago and more generally worldwide available around July, about a month ago. I guess we can surmise that the ones that got rid of them early did so because they were smart and made a profit and the ones doing so now at a loss are doing so because they are stupid.

 

I think the X1 is so niche that it cannot be easily sold to friends, family, etc. The nex on the other hand is mass market so one can simply offload to people u know. Its a bit like rolex vs lets say patek phillipe. Not to say patek loses value more than rolex, but when you try to sell something at that price range you need to find the exact right buyer who has a taste for these watches, and it is not easy to find. On the other hand, we can sell rolex to just about any shop that trade in second-hand watches. In fact, we have pawn shops here in Asia that will take in rolex without batting an eyelid irrespective of models. With patek, AP, etc the story is totally different. The X1 vs Nex second hand market works in the same way, IMHO.

[phancj]

lol. That PDF you posted explains how Sony used CCD to get them to a certain point (exceed film quality,) and now they are developing CMOS to go beyond that (exceed human vision.) You're right though, Sony does still use CCD...in their lowest end DSLRs like the A230.

 

Again, of course the X1 has better IQ than NEX with the kit lenses. There is no question of that. I'm simply saying the differences are negated when alternative glass is used. If you sat an X1 and a NEX-5 (with a CV35 1.4 mounted) on a table in front of me and told me to take one, regardless of price, I'd pick the NEX for my uses. This isn't a price thing for me. Considering the build and lens quality of the X1, I don't find it considerably overpriced, although it does make the NEX-5 look like a bargain. If the X2 has a 50 1.4 equivalent and some updated components (like a better LCD,) I may very well consider it. My posts aren't knocking the X1, but, rather, praising the NEX and its abilities.

 

Steve is correct that the M9 has special microlenses, but some of that disadvantage is negated due to the NEX's smaller sensor size. m4/3 still gets in trouble because of the outrageous thickness of the filter pack on the sensor. With NEX some M lenses definitely have an issue if they have a very short back focus, so it is on a case by case basis.

 

 

Sorry I made so many posts since my mind works in a single thread:o

 

But Douglas, with all respect, why would medium format backs not switch to CMOS if not for the fact that at the high end applications CCDs are superior? Thats what I thought I understood from sensor discussions.

[h00ligan]

phancj needs to learn the power of the +" logo I'm kidding friend...but seriously, look into the benefit of multiple quoting in forums, it will help your cause.

[AlanG]

But Douglas, with all respect, why would medium format backs not switch to CMOS if not for the fact that at the high end applications CCDs are superior? Thats what I thought I understood from sensor discussions.

 

I don't believe that anyone makes large CMOS sensors. So they can't switch if they wanted to. I think a lot of MF users would like to have live view. Especially for technical cameras that require using a groundglass. If that can't be accomplished on a large CCD sensor, maybe we'll eventually see large CMOS sensors that can do it.

[JanCderidder]

Something that needs to be explained. If the X1 IQ is so good that many of you will put up with a long list of shortcomings, why are so many for sale in the used market? I counted 5 on this site alone and 7 used ones on eBay. Conversely, a mass produced camera like the NEX 5 shows no used cameras for sale on eBay and Sony is sold out in worldwide production with its poor IQ (at least that is what is stated on this web site).

 

You actually go to the trouble and time of checking the number of second hand available Leica X1's ...... and this when you don't even own one, only to be able to stir up some sentiments in the respective camera's user forum?

[phancj]

1) I didn't list sales from months ago I said weeks- I know of 100% profitable turns from 2 weeks ago

2) Who's defending the X1's shortcomings? I certainly didn't- I didn't even list any.

3) The reviewers critiques of the menus and controls are simple facts not opinion- x item can't be accessed in y location, can't control these basic camera functions etc etc. Those are BIG deals not some picky persons eccentric opinion.

4) Supply has sucked sure but the X1 has been out in small bunches since the 3rd quarter 2009

5) Point taken that it hasn't been available massively till February but you are still talking about a 5-6 month difference. A lot can happen in 6 months to a purchaser in a bad economy, or any person who consumes goods with "latest and greatest" motivations.

 

If we rated cameras by the number being sold on ebay I think we would have some pretty wacky results. You can buy used underwear on eBay for $500 and buy lost Ansell Adams negatives for $45 in a garage sale. What does that tell you?

 

phancj needs to learn the power of the +" logo I'm kidding friend...but seriously, look into the benefit of multiple quoting in forums, it will help your cause.

 

haha...sorry:D

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[barjohn]

h00ligan,

 

If you only want a body I would buy the 16mm. You will pay less but you will still take a loss. The 16mm lens lists for $250 and sells for $100 in the two lens kit. Therefore the best you could hope for is somewhere around the $100 price. That means the body would cost you around $549. Alternatively, you can wait a little bit. If a pro model does become available and it has features that are more appealing, then there may be a few for sale. You can save another $100 buying the NEX 3 with the same sensor as an alternative and it is more available.