khanosu Posted December 25, 2006 Share #21 Posted December 25, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Here is one posted by Steve (sorry steve did not get your permission) in the thread “Strange Image Taken Today – another bug?” post #17 http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/12042-strange-image-taken-today-another-bug.html Caused again by the broad light source at the edge. Furrukh Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12047-black-horizontal-band/?do=findComment&comment=126258'>More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted December 25, 2006 Share #22 Posted December 25, 2006 Here is something very interesting! You can see this band here, although much wider caused by the flame at the edge. This picture is taken from Sean’s thread “Poll for Article – M8 Vertical Banding” http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/11998-poll-article-m8-vertical-band-2.html The picture was posted by Eric (sorry I did not ask for permission from Eric), Post #35 in that thread. I recall seeing other pictures posted here which show this broad band caused by a broad light source on the sweet spot at the edge. I will hunt around for them and post them here. Furrukh Furrukh Wow! It"s the same thing! I didn't understand this kind of banding until your report today. What, I think is going on here is * Although the flame is blown out for most of its vertical length, only part of it is blown out more than 4 stops which causes the greenish banding. And that part needs to be in the "perimeter pixel zone" (if it is a "fixed" camera) I too am going to go back and look at the more recent photos. But at this point I think I can pretty much predict which shots will have a banding problem and which will not. Your findings where the key Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted December 25, 2006 Share #23 Posted December 25, 2006 Furrukh Eurika! I just looked at a few more. Unfortunately, I have to stop pandering to my investigative, beta mode as my wife is calling me for Xmas dinner Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted December 25, 2006 Share #24 Posted December 25, 2006 Yes, looks like that to me i.e. same thing applied to perimeter pixels this time. Note that the offending light source need not be in the visible frame but just outside the visible edge and if it is bright enough then it will cause the perimeter pixels to be effected. So you might even see the band but not see the offending source. Furrukh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted December 25, 2006 Share #25 Posted December 25, 2006 Rex, you must be having an early Christmas dinner. My wife has not even put the duck in the oven! I have already opened a bottle of Merlot so by the time the duck is done who knows what state my investigative beta skills will be in. Merry Christmas, Furrukh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted December 25, 2006 Share #26 Posted December 25, 2006 This one posted by Phil Post #1, thread: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/12042-strange-image-taken-today-another-bug.html is from the same batch of cameras as mine (we both got them from the latest batch from B&H). The main light source causing the banding is just outside the left frame. That light is strong enough to cause the peripheral pixels on the left go wild. Furrukh Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12047-black-horizontal-band/?do=findComment&comment=126293'>More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted December 26, 2006 Share #27 Posted December 26, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) This one posted by Phil Post #1, thread: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/12042-strange-image-taken-today-another-bug.html is from the same batch of cameras as mine (we both got them from the latest batch from B&H). The main light source causing the banding is just outside the left frame. That light is strong enough to cause the peripheral pixels on the left go wild. Furrukh mmmmm.. For the peripheral pixel theory to be correct, an intense light source almost the height of the vertical frame would be necessary. Are you sure that there was such a light source? I'm not trying to be sceptical, after all I'm a proponent of the theory. Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted December 26, 2006 Share #28 Posted December 26, 2006 Rex, you might be right; the last picture might be somethign else. It does look different. Phil who posted the picture did mention that some funny thing was going on with with the preview right after he took the picture. So this might not be an example of the banding we are discussing. In any case here is a sequence of shots that illustrate that the banding can be there even if the offending light source is outside the visible frame. All of these are at ISO1250 and 28mm Summicron. Notice that you can see the bare bulb in the first frame and there is no banding. The banding reaches its max in the second frame. In subsequent frames the bulb moves out of the picture but banding still remains. The bulb is the culprit here, the lamp shade has no bearing on the problem. The next shot after this sequence has no banding (not posted). Furrukh Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12047-black-horizontal-band/?do=findComment&comment=126350'>More sharing options...
mike prevette Posted December 26, 2006 Share #29 Posted December 26, 2006 I'm a little late to the game on this one, but I'm having the same issue on my 1.09 patched M8. This shot and several like it were all 640iso, similar edge frame lights. This is defiinitly a different symptom than the original banding issue. This is getting tiresome. And now for something COMPLETELY different. This frame popped up in a series of good frames all taken approx 15secs apart. What was weird is the 320x240 preview image was NORMAL, but the DNG showed this freakish thing. Possibly a card error, but at this point who knows. _mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted December 26, 2006 Share #30 Posted December 26, 2006 There is no doubt in my mind that what you have demonstrated is true. Of course there are only about 3 or 4 people following this forum on Xmas. We are truly the sick ones. However I'm sure that the more influential ones will be interested. And keep hammering Leica but, being europeans, they will be having a leisurely week. Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted December 26, 2006 Share #31 Posted December 26, 2006 Mike, your first picture is definitely the banding we are talking about triggered by the edge light in the sweet spot. The second picture is – well – gulp – I have no idea - probably card error – maybe something happened while the card writing red light was busy blinking. Rex, you are right, we must be sick! I am hoping that when the normal ones start reading this thread after their family time they will read the whole thread from the beginning. Furrukh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted December 26, 2006 Share #32 Posted December 26, 2006 My unfixed 1.09 camera has the same problem as the light source moves out of the frame.... and Mike says, tiresome, to put it mildly. Furrukh, do you believe you camera has the sensor board fix? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted December 26, 2006 Share #33 Posted December 26, 2006 Mark, yes my camera came with the sensor board fix along with v1.09 from the factory. The box contained a pamphlet that explains the IR issue and points to the URL at Lecia to register the camera to get the two free filters. Also it does not show horizontal banding from intense light sources that are present in the frame, only from light sources that are at the very left or right edges. Furrukh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted December 26, 2006 Share #34 Posted December 26, 2006 Folks I'm actually a little more sanquine about this issue probably because I understand it more than anything else. I also understand how Leica could miss it, as it was masked by the more common issue which they fixed. I have a feeling it is a firmware fix because, in fact, the pixal perimeter is reading something that is there. The overload should be bled off somehow. Hopefully, this will not require an additional tride to Solm. My feeling is, if I was offered an M8 tommorrow, I would take it. I have looked at thousands of pictures and almost never seem this particular problem come up. Eventially it needs to be fixed but I'd rather have the M8 now and let the dust settle for a while. The M8 is taking some beautiful pictures (sometimes with a little help from the photographer), and while happy with the RD1, I'm anxious to start using the M8. Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted December 26, 2006 Share #35 Posted December 26, 2006 Furrukh, I think this worrying, if possible, you should get pictures off to Solms ASAP (though I think they are closed until 2 January). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted December 26, 2006 Share #36 Posted December 26, 2006 Mark, I have sent the original DNG files to technicalinfo@leicacamerausa.com as well as cs@leica-camera.com. So they are aware of the problem. I will also send them the URL of this thread so that they can see how to reproduce this band and also what I am reporting is not an isolated case but is probably effecting all the cameras, fixed or not fixed. Furrukh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlm Posted December 26, 2006 Share #37 Posted December 26, 2006 could it be that when the bright image falls just outside edge of the sensor it simply casts an internal reflection? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted December 26, 2006 Share #38 Posted December 26, 2006 Hi Jim This band ends precisely in the middle of the sensor so it can not be a reflection. I believe that it has to do with (as Rex proposed) the peripheral pixels getting excess charge (because of stong highlight) and then spilling this excess (overload) into the neighboring pixels as they are written to. Furrukh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted December 28, 2006 Share #39 Posted December 28, 2006 Just to keep everything in the same thread (I have sent Leica the URL of this thread) I am also including this info here: Today I did a test with the sun at the edge of the frame and was able to reproduce the banding. It is more difficult to reproduce the banding from the sun then from indoor lamps in my experience; the sweet spot seems to be narrower. In this sequence of pictures I have moved the camera just a little bit each time. 50mm Summicron with IR cut filter, DNG, ISO 320, CS3. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12047-black-horizontal-band/?do=findComment&comment=128385'>More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted December 28, 2006 Share #40 Posted December 28, 2006 I have not observed this phenomenon in the M8 I received yesterday (second wave body, FW 1.09) - I attempted to cause it too. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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