Astro photography with M9 and Noctilux 0.95

[faraz]

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Hello everyone,

 

First of all, I am so glad for this forum with so much amazing advice and helpful members. Thank you all for being such an amazing community.

 

I recently acquired a noctilux 0.95 lens along with an M9 and I am very happy with the results so far. It just occured to me yesterday that with such amazing low light capability, I can probably make use of this kit for astrological photography as well.

 

Do any of you have experience or pointers for me in that regard? I am a total newbie with rangefinders and astro stuff but feeling very comfortable with the RF side of things (loving it actually, much higher keeper rate than my 5d mark II and 85L II, although I still love the look of 85L on 5dII). Anyway, I would greatly appreciate some initial pointers on getting some good night sky shots if any of you have done this with similar apparatus.

 

Thanks in advance and once again, thanks for such a nice community.

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[ianman]

Hi Faraz,

 

I'm new here too and I've got to say the amount of knowledge and kindness in sharing is astounding ! So anyway, albeit from a newbie, welcome !

 

As to you question, I don't think a Noctilux will be of any special help in astro photography as wide open the DOF is very shallow and I guess that's the last thing you'll want when photographing infinity ;-)

 

Ian

[pop]

the DOF is very shallow and I guess that's the last thing you'll want when photographing infinity

 

I can assure you that this is the least problem. Once you've got one star in focus, you've all stars in focus. That includes the planets and the moon as well, presumably even the mountains. The clouds as well, but I don't think I've ever seen a sharp cloud.

[swamiji]

Hi Faraz,

 

As to you question, I don't think a Noctilux will be of any special help in astro photography as wide open the DOF is very shallow and I guess that's the last thing you'll want when photographing infinity ;-)

 

Ian

 

What is the DOF of any lens when focused at infinity.... it's infinity...

 

The question is how much distortion is inherent to the Lens.

 

Advice, I have two. 1) Use a tripod. 2) Try it first, then ask questions. Experimentation is your best teacher.

[Ed_K]

Welcome faraz, in the past i have seen some astro shots with strakes of light across the night sky, for sure it is a very long exposure with some wide angle lens, so your combo should worth the try given your further research into the exposure value, for example. Will look forward to your first starry shot

[SJP]

No idea whether the noctilux is capable at f/0.95 to get sharp enough stars, but assuming it is I would try wide open, 15 s, ISO 160 and see what happens. For a shot of the full moon much shorter times would apply maybe 1/500 at ISO 160. One positive point of the (old f/1) Noctilux is its great flare resistance if the same holds for the f/0.95 that should help to make interesting images.

 

Just try and let us know.

 

Examples here:

moon TE 90/2.8 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/3088138106_fa61e8866b_b.jpg

stars 28/2 ASPH http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3449/3318993494_6ef72933f6_b.jpg

[k-hawinkler]

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faraz,

 

The M9 and Noctilux 0.95 should do pretty well on a tripod.

I would start with lens fairly wide open, pretty high ISO, and 1 s exposure.

See, what you get, and feel your way from there.

Easy that way to even photograph the Orion nebula or the Pleiades.

 

These parameters would avoid star trails.

If you want to get star trails you do the opposite, namely stopping down, low ISO, and many seconds.

 

It's fun, enjoy, K-H.

[faraz]

Thanks very much, I will give these pointers a shot tonight.

 

I have taken some moon shots using the f11 rule, they seem ok, I imagine the real fun stuff would be to aim for the stars (that is where I suspect this lens would shine anyway).

 

Here are the moon shots:

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[Alnitak]

I'm going to guess that this will be a very poor lens for astrophotography, at least wide open. It's got a very curved field of focus, which is pretty common for the fastest glass, but also makes them pretty poor for astrophotography. It's also quite prone to longitudinal chromatic aberration, another common issue with fast glass.

 

I do a lot of astrophotography, but the Leica M system is far from ideal for this use. I will still be trying it a little later this year, when it warms up in the mountains where I observe.

 

My recommendation is to try a slower lens wide open, or better yet, stopped down very slightly. My guess would be that the Summicrons would be excellent choices at f/2.8 or so. Almost every lens, even the very best of lenses, have some curvature of the field at infinity, and nothing is a more punishing test of lens quality than astrophotography.

 

Now, it you just want star trails, a lot of the optical aberrations will be hidden, but you still want to stop down for that.

 

The reality is that if you want a good astrophoto, you want a tracking mount, good lenses, and a camera that excels at high ISO.

 

If you ever wanted to get more serious, I have written an article on this topic for the Naturescapes.net website:

 

Long-Exposure Astrophotography

 

Regardless, it will be interesting to see what you get.

 

Jeff

[Steve Fines]

The 21/1.4 , 24/1.4 and 50/.95 are certainly exciting lenses for star shots.

 

For images less than 30 sec (to avoid blurring the stars) these are really great lenses and unique among other camera systems.

 

However, the M9 claims to have a "B" mode on its dial. This to me is simply a lie. When on B mode, no matter how the shutter is being held open, it will close at about 240 seconds. It then does a mandatory dark field subtraction of the same time duration.

 

So this camera system is simply not an option for long exposures. Every Nikon and Canon I've owned does a better job in this arena - really a shame given Leica's lens line-up.

[faraz]

Thanks Steve and Jeff,

 

I still have my canon kit along with couple of interesting primes left over (the 85L II and the new 100mm macro are two examples of lenses I cannot replace in Leica land, at least yet). So I will certainly give them a shot but for now, this is what I was able to do with the noctilux (in a very urban area so light pollution is extremely high):

 

One of the following is a 2 second exposure whereas the second one is an 8 second exposure. Even at 8 seconds, the image is unusable due to light pollution (I doubt I am running into trails so fast). Have a look:

 

Flickr Photo Download: 2 seconds f0.95 M9 noctilux

 

Flickr Photo Download: 8 seconds f0.95 M9 noctilux

 

p.s. Previewing it I can see the resize has killed the images both here and on flickr. I will upload these to my personal servers tomorrow and bump this thread.

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[glacierparkmagazine]

The M9 definitely WILL NOT take a photo longer than 250 seconds. At that length of time, you still get star streaks, however, just short ones and on a moonlight night, some interesting effects. Perhaps Leica can fix this in a firmware update, though I suspect it may have something to do with the sensor heating up. For good star streaks, you need a 12-20 minute exposure.

[Alnitak]

The M9 definitely WILL NOT take a photo longer than 250 seconds. At that length of time, you still get star streaks, however, just short ones and on a moonlight night, some interesting effects. Perhaps Leica can fix this in a firmware update, though I suspect it may have something to do with the sensor heating up. For good star streaks, you need a 12-20 minute exposure.

 

You can get star trails by taking a whole sequence of short shots and stacking them. The trick with the M9 will be to get a shot short enough to avoid the automatic dark exposure subtraction. If you can't get around that, then even the stacking won't work.

 

Jeff

[faraz]

That really sucks. I just use the 21 f1.4 lens to capture an 8 second shot from my backyard and two things became evident:

 

1. Wow, it does take over twice as long to get similar results compared to noctilux

2. Hmm 21mm f1.4 is way, way sharper than the noctilux at f0.95 (obvious, right? but still interesting)

 

Here is the 21mm shot (and again on preview, this rescaling is killing me!!):

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[faraz]

You can get star trails by taking a whole sequence of short shots and stacking them. The trick with the M9 will be to get a shot short enough to avoid the automatic dark exposure subtraction. If you can't get around that, then even the stacking won't work.

 

Jeff

 

Well luckily I am not intro trails that much, I am going to look into astro platforms like you originally suggested (your article is nice).

[Alnitak]

Thanks Steve and Jeff,

 

I still have my canon kit along with couple of interesting primes left over (the 85L II and the new 100mm macro are two examples of lenses I cannot replace in Leica land, at least yet). So I will certainly give them a shot but for now, this is what I was able to do with the noctilux (in a very urban area so light pollution is extremely high):

 

 

Flickr Photo Download: 8 seconds f0.95 M9 noctilux

 

p.s. Previewing it I can see the resize has killed the images both here and on flickr. I will upload these to my personal servers tomorrow and bump this thread.

 

This second image demonstrates exactly what I said: The curved field of focus at infinity is yielding stars that look like winged birds (sometimes referred to as a "seagull" effect). This is severe coma, and a touch of astigmatism. Not flaws per se, just a function of how the lens is designed.

 

As for your Canons, I tested nearly every single Canon lens and a few other brands, and it wasn't always the fastest lenses that made the best astrophotography lenses. The 85/1.2L, for example. Both the original and the MkII have quite bad magenta haloing around bright stars, even stopped down a good bit. The 85/1.8 makes a better choice.

 

If you are not using a tracking mount, keep in mind that a good rule of thumb to use is that the focal length x secs of exposure should be less than 500 or you will see trailing of the stars. In reality, I prefer to use 300 instead of 500, so you will want to stick to wider lenses if you aren't using a mount.

 

Here's the kind of thing you can do with a Canon and a tracking mount:

 

 

If memory serves me right, that's 6 ten-minute exposures at ISO 800, f/4 with a Canon XSi modified by having the IR-cut filter replaced, using a 24mm f/1.4L Mark II. The images were stacked and combined to smooth out the noise. The camera was on a Kenko Skymemo mount.

 

While I will try a little "light" astrophotography with my M9, in reality, I will stick with the Canons for that work. Horses for courses.

 

Jeff

[Alnitak]

BTW, if you decide to do this with your Canon, I would highly recommend the Kenko Skymemo mount, or the AstroTrac. The best lenses are the 50/1.2L and 24/1.4L II, stopped down to about f/2.8-f/4 to get pretty sharp stars out near the edges.

[faraz]

This second image demonstrates exactly what I said: The curved field of focus at infinity is yielding stars that look like winged birds (sometimes referred to as a "seagull" effect). This is severe coma, and a touch of astigmatism. Not flaws per se, just a function of how the lens is designed.

 

As for your Canons, I tested nearly every single Canon lens and a few other brands, and it wasn't always the fastest lenses that made the best astrophotography lenses. The 85/1.2L, for example. Both the original and the MkII have quite bad magenta haloing around bright stars, even stopped down a good bit. The 85/1.8 makes a better choice.

 

If you are not using a tracking mount, keep in mind that a good rule of thumb to use is that the focal length x secs of exposure should be less than 500 or you will see trailing of the stars. In reality, I prefer to use 300 instead of 500, so you will want to stick to wider lenses if you aren't using a mount.

 

Here's the kind of thing you can do with a Canon and a tracking mount:

 

 

If memory serves me right, that's 6 ten-minute exposures at ISO 800, f/4 with a Canon XSi modified by having the IR-cut filter replaced, using a 24mm f/1.4L Mark II. The images were stacked and combined to smooth out the noise. The camera was on a Kenko Skymemo mount.

 

While I will try a little "light" astrophotography with my M9, in reality, I will stick with the Canons for that work. Horses for courses.

 

Jeff

 

Wow!!! That is awesome. I am surprised that canon is such a better tool for this job, I had assumed that my recent luck with great shots using m9 and noctilux as well as the 21mm summilux would translate to astro stuff, apparently not. Thanks very much for your pointers, especially the mount recommendations, much appreciated.

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[Alnitak]

Canon has been the best tool for astrophotography since the introduction of the 10D almost 8 years ago. An inexpensive Rebel that has been modified is a superb camera for this work; the modification enhances the red sensitivity so that the nebulae are properly represented. Nikon was too far behind for too long in the high-ISO noise space, particularly in their cheaper cameras, so the Canons have come to dominate this space. In addition, until very recently Canon had the best selection of fast primes.

 

Canon themselves recognized this market, and released a special version of the 20D, the 20Da, that was optimized for astrophotography, way back in 2004 or 2005. I had one; it was the first Canon or Nikon DSLR to implement Live View, which is important for critical focusing.

 

A great place to get a modified camera is Hutech; used ones can be found cheaply on Astromart.

 

Have fun!

 

Jeff

[perb]

When on B mode, no matter how the shutter is being held open, it will close at about 240 seconds. It then does a mandatory dark field subtraction of the same time duration.

 

I have used B a lot on my M8 but I always use it with the self timer set to 2 s. This way I simply nudge the shutter release button, and 2 s later the exposure starts. As the camera is sitting there on the tripod integrating I can look through the finder to see the time tick, and when I'm satisfied with the exposure time another nudge on the shutter release button will end the exposure with an automatic dark frame.

 

Out of curiosity, since I mostly do 30 s - 100 s exposures this way, I set my M8 with a lens on f/16 and cap on to "tick away" and it did so for 1024 s! ... and then the dark frame started counting down on the LCD but I ran out of battery

 

Have you tried the M9 with B and self timer?

 

Regards

Per