Digital Medium Format

[jackart]

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What exactly is Digital MF? As we remember, film MF is usually

 

60mm x 60mm

45mm x 60mm

 

Most common digital MF cameras have sensors

 

33mm x 44mm (Pentax, Leaf)

37mm x 49mm (Hasselblad)

30mm x 45mm (S2)

 

This is considerable less than "Full format MF"

 

Interesting what is minimum requirement for digital MF? Is S2 really APS-C camera in MF world???

[wildlightphoto]

Something between small and large? Going up the scale, small seems to top out at 24mm x 36mm while large starts at 4" x 5"

[Vieri]

You forget:

 

Phase One P45+ 49.1 x 36.8

Phase One P65+ 53.9 x 43.4

 

also, the actual negative size of a 645 film camera is not 60 x 45 but around 57 x 43.

[rosuna]

Is S2 really APS-C camera in MF world???

 

It is the Four Thirds of the MF world, I think.

 

The mount diameter is huge (relative to the diagonal of the sensor), the mount-to-sensor distance is very large (relative to the diagonal of the sensor) and the lenses seem to be quite large too, with long barrels (telecentric designs?).

 

It is an "optical driven" system. The specifications of the system seem to be designed for an optimal optical performance.

[JMacD]

Is there optical "room" for a larger sensor on an S3?

[dkCambridgeshire]

There is also the 36mm x 36mm sensor on the Leica S1 series of digital scanning cameras. A Leica S1 Pro sold at a well known auction house last December for €5040.

 

dunk

[mjh]

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It is the Four Thirds of the MF world, I think.

 

The mount diameter is huge (relative to the diagonal of the sensor), the mount-to-sensor distance is very large (relative to the diagonal of the sensor) and the lenses seem to be quite large too, with long barrels (telecentric designs?).

 

It is an "optical driven" system. The specifications of the system seem to be designed for an optimal optical performance.

It is also the FourThirds of the MF world in that the S2 is the only digital MF camera with a really stringent design. All the other MF DSLRs out there, including the 645D, have a mount size and flange distance designed with 120 roll film in mind but are fitted with some off-the-shelf sensor smaller than the original image size. Leica, lacking the legacy of an existing analog MF system, was free to choose the parameters (mount diameter, flange distance, and sensor size) any way they liked. They even had Kodak design a new sensor with an unusual 3:2 aspect ratio (unusual in the MF world) rather than using an existing design.

[adan]

Just for the record - "6x6" is really 55mm x 55mm. Or sometimes even 54 x 53 or some such. I've been scanning some 120 film from 4-5 different quote-"6x6"-unquote cameras (Hassy, Rollei, Yashica, Soviet folder) and they are all over the map in terms of real image size. My Rollei images sometimes even extend into the frame numbers and are STILL nowhere near 60mm wide.

 

(The film itself is exactly 60mm wide - so a true 60mm x 60mm image would have to run off the edge of the film)

 

I would say "medium format" = "noticeably larger than 35mm image area and smaller than sheet film" - the 4x4 "baby Rolleis" and other cameras using 127 film were a "medium" size - not 35mm, and not sheet film (which bottomed out at about 65 x 95mm, or just comfortably larger than "6x9").

 

127 film - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Incidentally, even "4x4" cameras really produced "3.8 x 3.8" images - scroll down to the slide-mount section about 1/2 way down this page: 127 film in the Frugal Photographer catalog

 

Which is pretty much the size of Hassy's original CFV sensor.

 

Of course there are also oddball MF cameras like 6x17 (presumably "really" around 55mm x 165mm, or almost as wide as a 5x7 view camera neg).

[jackart]

So, new Digital MF is everyhing equal and up from S2?

 

J

[dkCambridgeshire]

 

Of course there are also oddball MF cameras like 6x17 (presumably "really" around 55mm x 165mm, or almost as wide as a 5x7 view camera neg).

\

Check out 'banquet cameras" which can be even bigger than 6 x 17

eg:

Clyde Soles Banquet Camera Gallery

VCAMS

 

Cheers

 

dunk

[jacobh]

 

The mount diameter is huge (relative to the diagonal of the sensor), the mount-to-sensor distance is very large (relative to the diagonal of the sensor) and the lenses seem to be quite large too, with long barrels (telecentric designs?).

 

It is an "optical driven" system. The specifications of the system seem to be designed for an optimal optical performance.

 

Well, it is understood Pentax opted for compatibility with its 645 optics, so of necessity they had to copy the bayonet and register dimension of that system. This has not necessarily to do with "designed for optimal optical performance" of the system. In fact one could consider it as a 645 with a cropped sensor ( ~1.28 cropping factor).

Obviously it saves a lot of development effort to maintain an existing optics base and it will also seduce at least some 645 film-model users. Businesswise it looks like a sound decision.

 

Jaap

[markowich]

It is also the FourThirds of the MF world in that the S2 is the only digital MF camera with a really stringent design. All the other MF DSLRs out there, including the 645D, have a mount size and flange distance designed with 120 roll film in mind but are fitted with some off-the-shelf sensor smaller than the original image size. Leica, lacking the legacy of an existing analog MF system, was free to choose the parameters (mount diameter, flange distance, and sensor size) any way they liked. They even had Kodak design a new sensor with an unusual 3:2 aspect ratio (unusual in the MF world) rather than using an existing design.

 

just for the record, the P65+ is full MF framesize and the H4D60 will be as well.

peter

[ken_tanaka]

just for the record, the P65+ is full MF framesize and the H4D60 will be as well.

peter

 

Indeed, it's real close, Mark. The nominal 645 frame size is 56mm x 42mm. The PhaseOne P65+ sensor (usable) size is 53.9mm x 40.5mm. That's close enough for me!

 

The P45+ is 49.1mm x 36.8mm

The new-ish Mamiya DM33 is 48mm x 36mm

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Phase P40+ is 43.9 x 32.9. Pretty sure the Hassy D40 is also. I will be testing that next.

 

The P45+ is 49.1mm x 36.8mm

The new-ish Mamiya DM33 is 48mm x 36mm

These are 6.8 micron sensors

 

The comparative really is Hd40, Mamiya 40 , Phase 40+, Leaf 40 , Pentax 40 and S2 are all 6 micron sensors. The field is crowded pretty heavily on 6 micron

 

Than it jumps to P65 and H60 6 micron. Also the H50 is 6 micron

[oronet commander]

Well, it is understood Pentax opted for compatibility with its 645 optics, so of necessity they had to copy the bayonet and register dimension of that system. This has not necessarily to do with "designed for optimal optical performance" of the system.

 

rosuna was talking about the S2, wasn't he?

[mjh]

The P45+ is 49.1mm x 36.8mm

The new-ish Mamiya DM33 is 48mm x 36mm

These are 6.8 micron sensors

 

The comparative really is Hd40, Mamiya 40 , Phase 40+, Leaf 40 , Pentax 40 and S2 are all 6 micron sensors. The field is crowded pretty heavily on 6 micron

 

Than it jumps to P65 and H60 6 micron. Also the H50 is 6 micron

The 35 mm DSLRs also cluster around 6 microns with the Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III at 6.4 µm and the Nikon D3X at 5.9 µm. From a pixel-pitch perspective there is a level playing field with the 35 mm and MF markets differing only in the number of sensor pixels, but not in their size. Surprisingly the high-end DSLR with largest sensor pixels right now is the D3S at 8.45 µm; I am not aware of any current MF model matching that.

[rosuna]

rosuna was talking about the S2, wasn't he?

 

Yes, I was answering to the original (quoted) question.

[jacobh]

rosuna was talking about the S2, wasn't he?

 

Oops, and sorry, you are right. I was so preoccupied with the thread subject that I overlooked it.

 

Jaap.

[mwilliamsphotography]

The 35 mm DSLRs also cluster around 6 microns with the Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III at 6.4 µm and the Nikon D3X at 5.9 µm. From a pixel-pitch perspective there is a level playing field with the 35 mm and MF markets differing only in the number of sensor pixels, but not in their size. Surprisingly the high-end DSLR with largest sensor pixels right now is the D3S at 8.45 µm; I am not aware of any current MF model matching that.

 

Most 16 and 22 meg MF digital backs like the Phase One P20+ and P25+ have large pixels: 9 microns.

 

The Nikon is 12 meg, thus the larger 8.5 micron pixels.

 

What is amazing is that sensors almost doubled in resolution (from 22 to 39 meg. for example), but have 6.8 micron pixels.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[mjh]

Most 16 and 22 meg MF digital backs like the Phase One P20+ and P25+ have large pixels: 9 microns.

Yes, but the 18 and 22 MP CCDs in those backs aren’t in production anymore. The P20+ already being discontinued I wouldn’t expect the P25+ to be available for very much longer.