AlbertoDeRoma Posted February 7, 2010 Share #41 Posted February 7, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Alberto, As Noah said below, the truck is IMO what makes the shot more interesting and why I included it in the pictures. And I think your comment is a good way to illustrate part of the answer of my initial post. I believe you live in the US so to you a truck is a truck, but to many European, those huge trucks are an anomaly as they burn so much gas and are so useless in the city. In Paris, it is mainly Mini's, Smart's and mainly small cars. So n the end, the message was the contradiction/irony of a person fighting to move a small tree in a place full of concrete, skycrapers and non environment friendly vehicles. I don't know if it makes sense to you now? So to come back to my initial question maybe, the jury of LFI is mainly Westerners that do not see anymore the contradictions/complexity of their World, they are more impressed pictures of environments they now less well, or maybe it is just intellectual laziness ... As for cars in general in shots, it is annoying yet sometimes they add to it. What I find the real disturbance are backpacks with they crazy colors, we luckily do not see too many running shoes here and a lot of people dress in a way that makes great shots IMO. Thank you for your perspective on the role of the truck in the picture. Yes, I see the 'juxtaposition' now of hand cart + truck on steroids. Alberto Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 7, 2010 Posted February 7, 2010 Hi AlbertoDeRoma, Take a look here Is street photography dead in the Western world?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marke Posted February 7, 2010 Share #42 Posted February 7, 2010 Thank you for your perspective on the role of the truck in the picture. Yes, I see the 'juxtaposition' now of hand cart + truck on steroids. Alberto I agree with yanidel for the same reason. It's easy to dismiss these things if we're surrounded by them everyday. And I am. So then how do we remain unspoiled and open to seeing when something like this does work? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted February 7, 2010 Share #43 Posted February 7, 2010 ... Two, if there's one photographer who is not conceptual, than it's probably Eggleston. I don't know any other artist who so steadfastly denies that there's any "concept" in his work or that there's anything to interpret in there. ... I didn't mean to imply that Eggleston's work was conceptual, nor that he wanted it to be. But I often hear young photographers who do the kind of work I was talking about cite him as an influence. Really I think the term 'street photography' is sort of silly anyway. It could certainly incude Eggleston and Shore and others who don't do Carier-Bresson-style decisive moment work. ... Oh, and I wouldn't care too much about the outcome of photo competitions... Couldn't agree more. It's nice when you win one but even then it's just the opinion of a few other people on a given day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elansprint72 Posted February 7, 2010 Share #44 Posted February 7, 2010 Maybe the world just got tired of random snapshots of unknown people? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austinite Posted February 8, 2010 Share #45 Posted February 8, 2010 Not much a street photographer in the classic sense myself but I appreciate the good work of others. I was strolling around town yesterday with my M3 and photographed the rather funky door of a dry cleaners. No sooner did I pull the trigger when the door opened and a Chinese man said "why you photograph door? A little head scratching came up with the response "because you have a very cool door. Everyone else has a boring glass door and yours is a classic, antique wood door. I photograph only the interesting things around town." This seemed to please him and i went on my way. Anyway back on subject other photo sites I hang around are all into landscapes and bird photos and the occasional nude. Very few folks have the stones to make really good street shots. Too many shots of folks walking doing nothing. The decisive moment concept hold true. The photo need to tell a story to be good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted February 8, 2010 Share #46 Posted February 8, 2010 It's nice when you win one but even then it's just the opinion of a few other people on a given day. I absolutely disagree! Judges are trained to see very differently and to discern efficiently because of their Professional Editing Background, teaching or professionally shooting. Bluntly mistaking serious contest judges for the average Joe that is, usually, extremely subjective and that praises all the pics on flickr, is very misinformed of you. Like it or not, serious Judges and Editors can separate themselves from the inferior subjective feeling. A thing the average Joe cannot. You may not like the final outcome, but usually, those judges will make the right choice. Due credit must be given. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted February 8, 2010 Share #47 Posted February 8, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Judges are trained to see very differently and to discern efficiently because of their Professional Editing Background, teaching or professionally shooting. Depends very much on who the judges are. For example, three of the five judges for the last Oskar Barnack award were Seal (a pop singer and amateur photographer), Dr. Kaufmann (Leica's owner who studied history and worked as a teacher for 15 years), and Dr. Kaufmann's wife (who studied literature and philosophy and worked as a dance teacher for a long time). None of them has a professional editing background or has ever taught photography or shot on a professional basis. I'm sure they love photography and they did their best to find a worthy laureate, but what would have been the difference if I had done it instead? (Except of course for the fact that I'm neither rich nor famous...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted February 8, 2010 Share #48 Posted February 8, 2010 ... Bluntly mistaking serious contest judges for the average Joe that is, usually, extremely subjective and that praises all the pics on flickr, is very misinformed of you. ... I never compared serious contest judges to flickr fans. I've judged contests before, attended other judging events and also won my fair share of contests. I'm not discounting the skill of judges nor their objectivity. However each judge may come from different backgrounds, different cultures and they may have different areas of expertise within photography. Furthermore, there is no 'best' photograph. It may be simple to compare the average flickr photo to, say, a photo by Cartier-Bresson. But how about comparing that Cartier-Bresson photo to one by Gursky? Apples and oranges, right? And while one may not be 'better', I'm sure most educated, photo-literate people have an opinion about which they prefer. In particular, contests with no limits on genre or style are difficult to judge. Judging a documentary image against a landscape against a portrait can be very challenging. I have the utmost respect for judges, but in the end contest results still represent the judges' educated, informed opinions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted February 8, 2010 Share #49 Posted February 8, 2010 I never compared serious contest judges to flickr fans. I've judged contests before, attended other judging events and also won my fair share of contests. I'm not discounting the skill of judges nor their objectivity. However each judge may come from different backgrounds, different cultures and they may have different areas of expertise within photography. Furthermore, there is no 'best' photograph. It may be simple to compare the average flickr photo to, say, a photo by Cartier-Bresson. But how about comparing that Cartier-Bresson photo to one by Gursky? Apples and oranges, right? And while one may not be 'better', I'm sure most educated, photo-literate people have an opinion about which they prefer. In particular, contests with no limits on genre or style are difficult to judge. Judging a documentary image against a landscape against a portrait can be very challenging. I have the utmost respect for judges, but in the end contest results still represent the judges' educated, informed opinions. I'm sorry, but what I read here is Defeatism at its best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 8, 2010 Share #50 Posted February 8, 2010 What opinionated, blinkered prime-cut drivel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted February 8, 2010 Share #51 Posted February 8, 2010 Depends very much on who the judges are. For example, three of the five judges for the last Oskar Barnack award were Seal (a pop singer and amateur photographer), Dr. Kaufmann (Leica's owner who studied history and worked as a teacher for 15 years), and Dr. Kaufmann's wife (who studied literature and philosophy and worked as a dance teacher for a long time). None of them has a professional editing background or has ever taught photography or shot on a professional basis. I'm sure they love photography and they did their best to find a worthy laureate, but what would have been the difference if I had done it instead? (Except of course for the fact that I'm neither rich nor famous...) Ok, so let's analyze: -A known artist who has to have great discernment and the ability to work within tight rules in order to be succesful. -Leica's owner, who is a high profile and succesful Businessman. This usually denotes someone who has sure judgement. Especially the "teacher" part. -His wife, a Teacher and Student in fields that also require high discernment and sustained training. Do those Three people, that also happen to be deeply involved in the photographic world, synced together equate to "any other people at any other given day"? One simply acquires expertize by being around, and working with, pro photographers and Editors. This involves product shooting, having a different vision on things, Various discussions on which artistic direction to take for a given product, song, web page... Mr. Kauffman, his wife and Seal who is in the showbusiness, could probably be good editors for the NY Times. And you probably kinow as well as me that the only thing that makes a Newspaper and magazine work is the editing part. I strongly doubt that "any other person on any other day" could make such a Magazine succesful, or be a superstar, or be as succesful as Mr. Kauffman or be a dance teacher. A reality check is in order here, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted February 8, 2010 Share #52 Posted February 8, 2010 What opinionated, blinkered prime-cut drivel. Deep and substantial post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted February 8, 2010 Share #53 Posted February 8, 2010 Not participating in a contest because it's boring, unappealing or whatever other reason (except the one below), that's prefectly fine. But not entering a contest because one "knows" that he won't win because the judges have no clue is defeatism at its best. And even worse, when one doesn't win and thinks that he would have won if the judges were different people, then it's even worse. It simply shows poor self-editing, delusion. The Cream always rises to top. The Judges, in the majority of the time, will always end up making the good choice. The other people's scattered opinions after the judging is done is only that, scattered opinions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted February 8, 2010 Share #54 Posted February 8, 2010 A reality check is in order here, IMO. Read again your sentence I replied to. You wrote about "Professional Editing Background, teaching or professionally shooting," not me. Now that I mentioned three judges in a high profile photo competition for whom this does not apply, you're essentially saying that being a successful singer or businessman is just as good. (Not to forget that Dr. Kaufmann still has to prove that he is a successful businessman. Buying the majority of Leica was his first ever business venture. The money he has was inherited.) I also don't understand why you repeatedly mention "any other person on any other day" - this is certainly not something I have said. Other than that, I fully agree with Noah: Even if you have the best judges in the world (whatever that means), there is no such thing as an objective measure for one photo being "better" than another. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 8, 2010 Share #55 Posted February 8, 2010 My apologies... I missed out ''egocentric'' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted February 8, 2010 Share #56 Posted February 8, 2010 My apologies... I missed out ''egocentric'' Indeed. Egocentricism is a valuable trait. I wouldn't want to be without it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 8, 2010 Share #57 Posted February 8, 2010 Absolutely no danger of that. How unfortunate that it is so misplaced in this instance. "Chained by his certitude he is a slave; he has forfeited his freedom." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo_Lorentzen Posted February 8, 2010 Share #58 Posted February 8, 2010 Soo Bill you are really suggesting entering all contests.? +1 there is no such thing as a un-biased professional editor, they all have their sweet-spot and price. Not saying contests is not good fun and brings out great photography, just agreeing that surely there is some personal weighting. (im ok with that its part of life). "The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn, feel, change, grow or love. " . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 8, 2010 Share #59 Posted February 8, 2010 Exactly, Bo. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share #60 Posted February 8, 2010 I think both opinions make sense , that is a jury can be relied on as a people with close relationship with photography therefore a trained eye but at the same time, given the high number of pictures submitted, one day's selection could be different from the next based on how discussions go this day and interactions between jury members. A certain kind of winner profie would still emerge but the chosen pictures might differ from one day to the other. That still does not explain why this jury went 80% of non Western photography. Could it be simply that the ratio of pictures submitted was also in that proportion ? I still suspect this is due to lack of authorization and consequences on many shots. A jury with a strong photography background would not fall in the trap of going purely with the exotic / far away photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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