EP-2 vs M8 as budget, spare or 2nd camera

[Jerry_R]

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Basically IQ is directly coupled to how big the sensor behind your lens is.

NO. That is very very big simplification directing to incorrect conclusions.

 

IQ depends on several factors, among others:

- sensor size

- software behind

- lenses

- AA filter presence & power

 

- Sony and Nikon share the same sensor, but different software. Nikon is noise master, Sony opposite - is perfect on low ISOs.

- M8 has bigger sensor than E-P1 - but is more noisy.

- M lenses also have further focusing distance. It affects final results in some circumstances a lot.

- GH1 has multispect sensor, that uses sensor area in the smartest way - so in fact when compared in 16:9 (eg. landscape) - it is in fact similar to APS in coverage

 

PS: GH1 sensor is different than any other 43 and u43 sensors released so far. As I said in first post - people here state a lot of strong opinions without knowledge behing about EXTERNAL to Leica WORLD. Without having that cameras in hand...

 

 

But don't try to convince us that a PEN2 can get better IQ than M8/9 it simply isn't.

Pls check what I wrote and do not put in my mouth words which I did not write. Let me quote myself.

 

Only and just M9 - makes the deal, makes the difference [...] I decided to buy M9

but we talk about M8, not M9. I do have M9 and see a lot better IQ against u43

 

So let me repeat once again. M9 is different story. No doubts here. Yesterday I made few comparison night shots (M9 and GH1, unfortunately with zoom only, not 20mm), where difference is visble easily.

There is no such difference against M8 simply.

 

Leica has excelent lenses. They all are master class.

u43 has only and just good lenses, better than kit zooms of Nikon\Canon, and one excelent lens - 20mm f/1.7.

 

=> To SUM UP - we talk about ONE FAMILY - system cameras with exchangeable lenses without mirror.

 

And first Leica attempt - M8 - will soon be treated as just 'learning curve' in Leica history. Some lessons learnt - we have M9. Which I like a lot and will carry with me every day.

 

Have a nice day!

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[Logic108]

I have heard it said that the M8 was just a stage the M9 went through. The idea being that really the M9 is the 'true' digital M camera.

From what I have seen and heard the M9 is really the M8 but with a bigger sensor. I think this is basically true.

The GF1 is a very good camera but from what I have seen there is no 'wow' with it's images. Also when not using manual lenses it becomes a digital point and shoot - like all digital cameras these days. This includes the X1 which I have altered my view about.

The point is that the M8 is the second best digital RF. The M9 is the best. The pen and GF1 and X1 are not rangefinders. IQ aside there is the usage issue - the ergonomics - I ran away from fully automated cameras.

So true RF and great IQ - M8 or M9. Good IQ and smaller than SLR - Pen, GF1, X1.

[Guest stnami]

Ahha Logic prevails he hasn't used a X1

[Jerry_R]

IQ aside there is the usage issue - the ergonomics

Very important comment!

Fully agree.

[johntobias]

And today, the 'budget' EPL1 looks like another possibility......£perhaps around $449 without lens (and uses the evf of the ep2)

 

personally I'm thinking of it for M-Lens quality HD movies!

[Jerry_R]

Found today: comparison of E-PL1 sensor to compact camera sensor:

 

 

Amazon.com: Olympus PEN E-PL1 12.3MP Live MOS Micro Four Thirds Interchangeable Lens Digital Camera with 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 Zuiko Digital Zoom Lens (Slate Blue): Electronics

 

 

PS:

=> If you still have energy, as thread became very interesting - could we talk about what causes that 'Leica WOW' effect?

=> Something, that no other camera delivers, even competition FF, right?

[Ivo_Afrikanac]

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Leica in World Of Warcraft? Just kidding...

[diogenis]

You contradict (for a second time... )

here:

Leica has excelent lenses. They all are master class.

u43 has only and just good lenses, better than kit zooms of Nikon\Canon, and one excelent lens - 20mm f/1.7.

here:

NO. That is very very big simplification directing to incorrect conclusions.

 

IQ depends on several factors, among others:

- sensor size

- software behind

- lenses

- AA filter presence & power

and here:

And first Leica attempt - M8 - will soon be treated as just 'learning curve' in Leica history. Some lessons learnt - we have M9. Which I like a lot and will carry with me every day.

You don't make sense:

at first quote you admit that even though the M8 has bigger sensor, master lenses (you said it) and no AA, it still makes equal IQ pics.... how???????

 

your last quote the thing about M8/9 ... well, I am sorry but they are almost identical. If you do think that Leica was experimenting then fine, but at least tell us why ???

 

Anyway you don't make make sense and contradict twice..

Have a nicer day...

[Ivo_Afrikanac]

I have not used digital Leica, but I think WOW is coming mostly from way of getting the picture, not so much from final quality.

 

Similar quality should be possible from equally priced FF like top end Nikon and adequate primes... surely there is some taste of Leica lenses, bokeh etc... but it is feeling of writing a letter with Mont Blanc compared to plastic pencil, it may write smoother but literate meaning is the same (may look a bit better!).

 

There is also a feeling I get that having really fast primes makes photographers go especially for those dark scenes, where only one patch remains clear in DOF and bright, which is very interesting. It is becoming a trade mark while was never original Leica concept.

[Jerry_R]

If you do think that Leica was experimenting then fine, but at least tell us why ???

At least two reasons:

-) 1st - people pay twice - obvious, probably driven by marketing people

-) 2nd - more probably and reasonable - learning curve. Leica admitted itself, that at time when they were working on first digital rangefinder - employees didn't believe FF rangefinder is achieveable at all! There were some technical issues and constraints.

They did their best at that time. Then - as I remember correctly - some high management (or one manager) changed and put vision of FF digital rangefinder into reality in cooperation with Kodak.

 

Do you believe Leica will release next CROP sensor model?

[Jerry_R]

not so much from final quality [...] Leica lenses, bokeh etc... [...] having really fast primes makes photographers go especially for those dark scenes, where only one patch remains clear in DOF and bright, which is very interesting.

Bingo - this is what I observed againts u43. Plus better sharpness across whole frame (except 20mm f/1.7 lens which is excelent here). Plus some kind of glow and cleanness of picture, which reminds me my analog times.

 

Also - processing RAW file is much more flexible with FF - M9. I can move sliders to more extremes without seeing artifacts.

But to be honest - I feel less need to move that sliders than in u43! This is FIRST THING THAT AMAZED me with M9!

I open RAW file in LR, make slight modifications, not even every time! - and my picture is ready! As I imagined that in my mind when or before taking a photo. u43 - just shows me more snapshot - how really subject looked like.

 

I have to show you that comparison later tonight.

 

About fast primes and shallow DOF - absolutely true against u43. Other FF systems also have fast primes. Do you think they differ much? Maybe with the glow? Contrast? Any idea?

[diogenis]

Jerry,

Your first reason is obviously wrong: look elsewhere in other companies for that. When you make and keep your product for 5 years it's not exactly marketing.

Then you should not forget that, if a camera has already 4-5 years in the making it has 2-3 maybe more in the designing, and obviously 8-10 back there weren't even FF cameras to begin with.

Anyway Jerry, there is no reason for me trying to persuade you, so yes the m4/3 is better and cheaper than both M8 and 9.

[Logic108]

What produces the 'wow'? Well if we knew exactly then other companies would be imitating Leica. The 'wow' I would call microcontrast or acuity.

How to get this? In the digital world I think it's a mixture of

1. large sensor + large photo sites

2. No AA filter

3. The lenses

4. The way the microlenses are on the sensor.

[brianv]

Nikon had an early Digital camera in the mid 90s that was full-frame. It had a built in relay lens to give the equivalent field of view as a 35mm film format. Not too many were made, and it was big and expensive. I still use one as it works with the SB-29 macro light, and is good for documenting lens projects.

 

As for the rest of this thread, all I can say is the OP asked which was a better second camera to the M9. In terms of similarity in handling and system level compatibility, the answer is M8. In terms of nit-picking digital camera technology, welcome to the digital age. You are in for a fast ride, it isn't like the M3 days. The faster you learn to pick up a camera, decide for yourself that you like it and that it is good enough to get the job done, the better off you will be. At that point, do not bother asking for advise as others know what is "right for them" and think it is right for everyone. I learned that lesson in 2002 with the D1x, good enough for the job and never had to replace it for professional use.