More firmware updates for the M8?

[AbbeyPhoto]

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The settings menu is reasonably accessible, a Leica isn't about speed, it's about taking your time and using your eyes & brain. I already feel slightly 'dirty' on the odd occasion I use automatic exposure on the M8 ... I'm not scared of automation (I make my living using Nikons which are always on aperture priority & auto ISO), just don't feel I'm using the Leica properly on auto. Even using thick gloves the M8 is a joy to use on manual.

 

The only thing I want from a firmware upgrade is better quality at higher ISO in my images ..... if it can do that I'm happy.

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[brianv]

I would like to see a 16-bit DNG file format offered in addition to the 8-bit now implemented. It will mean double the write-time, but still faster than my M3 Double-Stroke. I would rather have the 16-bit depth to the pixels to work with.

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

The settings menu is reasonably accessible, a Leica isn't about speed, it's about taking your time and using your eyes & brain. I already feel slightly 'dirty' on the odd occasion I use automatic exposure on the M8 ... I'm not scared of automation (I make my living using Nikons which are always on aperture priority & auto ISO), just don't feel I'm using the Leica properly on auto. Even using thick gloves the M8 is a joy to use on manual.

 

The only thing I want from a firmware upgrade is better quality at higher ISO in my images ..... if it can do that I'm happy.

 

i can agree more with your excellent point and i believe that 400-800-1000 iso will look great.

also the 16 bit DNG.

the most important functions.

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

Any news on the update????

[menos I M6]

I am a M8.2 user since yesterday ;-)

 

I am quite happy with what I have seen so far.

 

These points would greatly improve:

 

Full standard ISO settings (full stops or maybe half stops, as aperture and shutter speed are calculated in half stops anyway).

 

I hate, to always stumble over ISO 1250 or ISO 2500, when translating exposure values, I am accustomed too from Nikon and the Leica film bodies.

 

Just implement ISO from 64 (pulled as other camera manufacturers do it too) to ISO 3200 - no more brain gymnastics = quicker shooting.

 

Free up the totally useless "S" mode on the shutter speed dial and do the most useful with this wasted position - make it a completely user programable mode.

I would immediately have DNG + JPG B&W set, as I use the camera normally.

 

Free up the menu navigation, to make step into and out of menus possible with the left and right button. Having to use the set button all the time is forceful and not needed.

It forces the photographer, to take the left hand from the lens to the digital buttons for a gameboy session.

I prefer, to do all the setting with my right hand and the directional buttons only - much quicker (please copy from Nikon Pro DSLRs).

 

Please give me one proper info menu, where I can see the exact battery status in % and not just a 3 segment battery symbol.

 

Please hide all not frequently used menu points into one system menu. I don't want to have to scroll past date and time settings, when I just want to change the sharpness or contrast setting of the JPG compression. I don't need to reset the camera as often, as I would like to change the JPG color from B&W to color and so forth.

 

Thats all - it is a pretty nice camera so far.

I must admit though, that the M9 is not worth a premium of 4.000,- EUR over a nice M8.2 for the improvements (that is the price differential here in Shanghai at the moment).

 

I am very, very happy, I did not spend the additional 4.000,- EUR ;-)

[iwskipper]

Me too, my M8 was bought second hand and I've had no probs upgrading firmware......would love to see v 2.05 with manual lens selection ;-)

 

otherwise no, my M8 and 2.04 is just fine and dandy!

 

That`s it.

 

Just the manual lens selection

[wolfloid]

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"a Leica isn't about speed, it's about taking your time and using your eyes & brain."

 

I really dislike this sort of self-satisfied, pretentious nonsense. Actually, a Leica is for whatever it's user wants to use it for - and just for your information, traditionally, a Leica was ALWAYS about speed - anyone who wanted to take a more measured approach had the option of far better IQ with larger formats.

 

It still stuns me that some of these design disasters managed to get past the Leica wonks. I mean, burying controls for compensation and ISO AFTER they had received hundreds of mails, many months before the launch, asking them, specifically, not to do that, shows a level of stubborn stupidity that took many people's trust away from the company.

 

Now, at last, they have addressed some of these failings in the M9, but let's not pretend that they wern't bad errors of design judgment. Leica ought to do everything they can to rectify their earlier failings for FREE.

[AbbeyPhoto]

"a Leica isn't about speed, it's about taking your time and using your eyes & brain."

 

I really dislike this sort of self-satisfied, pretentious nonsense. Actually, a Leica is for whatever it's user wants to use it for - and just for your information, traditionally, a Leica was ALWAYS about speed - anyone who wanted to take a more measured approach had the option of far better IQ with larger formats."

 

Fifty years ago a Leica was the fast compact option compared to the alternatives available. A Leica can be for whatever you want, but if you want speed there are better tools for the job nowadays. Don't buy a hammer then complain that it's no good for slicing cheese.

 

It still stuns me that some of these design disasters managed to get past the Leica wonks. I mean, burying controls for compensation and ISO AFTER they had received hundreds of mails, many months before the launch, asking them, specifically, not to do that, shows a level of stubborn stupidity that took many people's trust away from the company.

 

Like, I suspect, most people I shoot manual with my Leica, so I couldn't care less where the compensation and ISO controls are. And when I need them they're not that far away. Maybe Leica thought that was typical of the people who would buy the M8, based on their experiences with previous M models. Or maybe they're morons like you suggest.

 

Now, at last, they have addressed some of these failings in the M9, but let's not pretend that they wern't bad errors of design judgment. Leica ought to do everything they can to rectify their earlier failings for FREE.

Maybe you should think about buying a Canon / Nikon if you hate Leica so much? Just a thought, they're very good.

[wolfloid]

Even at the beginning of the digital era, Leica's were still being used by professionals for fast, available light photography - hardly 50 years ago. That you don't need or want an adequately designed auto operation on the camera is completely irrelevant, plenty of people do, and given that it only takes a little forethought to do it, why not do the job properly.

 

As for your suggestion that 'most people shoot manual like you do', well, this is just your, rather arrogant surmise.

 

And I shoot both Leica and Canon - both have their advantages/disadvantages - but Canon, and almost all other cameras, have managed to enable the user to directly compensate for exposure or change the ISO, in other words they recognised the need for this, as indeed did did the majority of film cameras with auto exposure - even the M7 had a direct set ISO dial, so it was hardly a new fangled facility for the designers.

 

You can go on defending the Leica M8 design flaws if you want, but the more you do, the more it sounds like you are justifying your pride in choosing to shoot in manual mode - as I said, totally irrelevant to those who choose to use auto.

[menos I M6]

I use my rangefinders mostly full manual too. The A mode on my EPSON R-D1, Leica M7 and now M8.2 remain for very erratic light changes in quick situations, where I simply cannot keep up with the exposure setting.

 

I find the implementation of the exposure compensation in the M8.2 quite nice (half pressed shutter + rear dial).

This works very intuitive and the eye can remain at the viewfinder (very similar to the quick exp. comp. on my Nikon D3).

 

Unfortunately, I do not use the exposure compensation much (as I shoot manual mostly) and would prefer such a direct method, to set ISO speed.

 

I just came back from a longer morning walk from darkness to daylight and was constantly changing ISO speed according to light changes and subject (need for stop motion or least noise with low shutter speeds).

 

I started in the night @ ISO 1250 and shutter speeds of 1/4 with a 28 Cron ASPH. and moved to ISO 320 and shutter speeds of 1/250.

 

There is no reason whatsoever, to defend design flaws - or lets call them just a less offending to die hard Leica IIIf users "less ideal technical detail solutions".

 

The digital M is a very fine camera line. It is still in its very early years (compare it in its development with the Nikon D1x and you know, were to go still, to arrive at a D3 of today).

Nobody wants a Leica M to be as automated as a Nikon D3 or Canon 1D.

 

It is just the goal of every engineer, to find the most satisfactory compromise for a target use of a tool. The digital M is still in development (which means not it is bad as it is).

 

I would after some more use like to have other options as well:

 

Seperate "system" menu with all system related settings (to get these settings out of sight, which are seldom used).

An option, to have the shutter speed ALWAYS displayed in the viewfinder (checking which shutter speed, you dialed after setting proper exposure on the mechanical barely readable dial in the dark is simply not adequate).

 

A direct ISO speed selection - menu option with 3 selections, to:

 

1. change ISO speed with half pressed shutter + rear dial or

2. change exposure compensation with the same "short cut" or

3. set either, based on whether shooting manual or in A mode

 

I look forward to the further development of the digital M - with strong hope, that the essentials of the M design will remain. These are for me the classic and perfected shape and design, the mechanical rangefinder, a low noise shutter, fast and compact lenses.

 

Oh and by the way - I read about a great diversion regarding the bottom plate design of the digital M.

I must say, after a few days of use, it really is a non issue for me.

I am used, to quickly change film with my M6 and M7 and really have switched the battery in the same or shorter time, than in my Nikon D3.

The SD card is also changed as quick, as a card in my D3.

The nice thing about the M is, that both items are accessed through the same "entrance".

As an technical designer specialized in die casting, the Leica M design actually makes a lot of sense and does not only reuse an old design out of nostalgia.

[AbbeyPhoto]

Even at the beginning of the digital era, Leica's were still being used by professionals for fast, available light photography - hardly 50 years ago. That you don't need or want an adequately designed auto operation on the camera is completely irrelevant, plenty of people do, and given that it only takes a little forethought to do it, why not do the job properly.

 

I agree that it could have been done easily, and for those people who want this it is a shame not to have it. However it doesn't detract from the way I use the camera. I suspect Leica were rather reluctant to put any automation in the M8 at all. I disagree that it makes the M8 a bad camera, though having used Hasselblads and Sinars professionally maybe I have a lower expectation of ergonomics

 

As for your suggestion that 'most people shoot manual like you do', well, this is just your, rather arrogant surmise.

 

Yes. But also I think somewhat accurate. Maybe we should do a poll?

 

And I shoot both Leica and Canon - both have their advantages/disadvantages - but Canon, and almost all other cameras, have managed to enable the user to directly compensate for exposure or change the ISO, in other words they recognised the need for this, as indeed did did the majority of film cameras with auto exposure - even the M7 had a direct set ISO dial, so it was hardly a new fangled facility for the designers.

 

You can go on defending the Leica M8 design flaws if you want, but the more you do, the more it sounds like you are justifying your pride in choosing to shoot in manual mode - as I said, totally irrelevant to those who choose to use auto.

 

You misunderstand my point I think. I take no pride in shooting manual exposure, it's something I rarely do with my Nikons (aperture priority and exposure compensation is the way for me). I know of colleagues who take perverse pleasure in shooting Nikon / Canon manually, even with manual focus, and this seems to me to be strange becuase those cameras do such things very well.

 

By comparison the Leica has a very primitive system for measuring exposure, and it is easily fooled. I have tried shooting A mode and found it very inconsistent. I find it faster and more accurate to use the exposure meter to find the correct setting and then adjust (usually the shutter speed) to compensate up or down.

[Megg]

Gentlemen,

Shall we keep our focus in Firmware Update?? Really looking forward for update on M8 &.2

 

Perhaps manual lens selection, better iso control, no more -ev banding..

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

Gentlemen,

Shall we keep our focus in Firmware Update?? Really looking forward for update on M8 &.2

 

Perhaps manual lens selection, better iso control, no more -ev banding..

 

100% next to you .

[Leicaiste]

Should be there for PMA I suppose.

[Megg]

I read somewhere an interview about M8 enhancement & future support, and the spokesman said there will be some sort of upgrade but didn't clearly elaborate. I bet we all hope M8&.2 can be manually select lens choices. Last round, Discreet mode is a great offer!

 

It just not the Leica philosophy if they suspended M8 support in only short 3 yrs!

Even back in 1999, the electronics were capable to house today's feature, as long as the image processing remains. Well, Im not a techy expert..

 

Looking forward PMA news!!

[steinzeug]

Could is be a case of space limitations?

 

Might future firmware upgrades be limited to the built in software memory/capacity on the M8?

i.e that it is smaller than what is necessary to accomodate the M8.s and M9 features?

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

Could is be a case of space limitations?

 

Might future firmware upgrades be limited to the built in software memory/capacity on the M8?

i.e that it is smaller than what is necessary to accomodate the M8.s and M9 features?

 

if this is the issue i dont mind to pay in order to boost the software memory,though i dont think that is a problem with the existing capacity to add:

 

1 /the interval missing iso 80-250-400-800-1000 (they really should have done that,why it takes them so long?????)

 

2/ to unlock the 16 bit DNG -even if recording times will be slower.

 

3/ to make useful the dead protect button -iso change.

 

4/ to make EV adjustments not deep inside menu.

 

most probably the existing capacity is more than enough but again i wouldn't mind to upgrade the processors at a cost if necessary.

 

Anyway if is true the PMA date then the upgrades are already decided and ready-why wait until then.

[Megg]

Personally, I think 16-bit could be a challenge, it may require significant memory I supposed apart from speed. But for other handy enhancements, I hope it can handle well with the current hardware, even back in their launch era, memory was not expensive and I suppose whoever the designer should expect sufficient room for future usages.. Well, just my own opinion. However, there're companies which thinks the other way of course, that is limit their models within short life cycle for new product marketing... Again, I doubt that's Leica's philosophy though. I think there's still say... 15-20% improvement we could squeeze out of M8&.2 in electronics features term..

 

Hope to see some good news in PMA.. however, really hate to do hardware upgrade, it is a real hassle to do all those traveling and waiting. And of course, Leica's style never gives efficient service even with high price tag, instead they do it according to their own pace. Hope we dont have to tolerate.. Let cross our fingers and hope for good news

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[ashrafazlan]

I wouldn't mind if I have to sacrifice a few seconds to get 16(or 14)bit files, it's not like one looks for speed when shooting with a Leica

[steinzeug]

I wouldn't mind if I have to sacrifice a few seconds to get 16(or 14)bit files, it's not like one looks for speed when shooting with a Leica

 

Let´s hope someone from Leica is reading this!