new CV 12mm

[biglouis]

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My WATE always produced red tinged images on the M8. Not a problem, just required some post processing to remove them. It has always puzzled me that all of a sudden people with M9 think it is such a big problem.

 

If the 12mm is rangefinder coupled then I'd definitely buy that over the 15/4.5. I had the old 12/5.6 and it was freakishly sharp and amazing to use on a M8. I used it pretty much always at f5.6 as there was no need to stop it down further and the performance tailed off dramatically above F8.

 

Jeff, that CV12 shot of St Paul's is AWESOME!

 

LouisB

[Alnitak]

Again Jeff,

 

the indoor shot of the museum is terrific. It seems to me this lens should be used only indoors the way you take them.

 

Best Regards,

 

Moritz

 

Thanks Moritz. I want to stress, however, that I feel the overall distortion of the lens is realtively low, but because of how wide it is, perspective distortion is quite easily enhanced. In the case of the indoor shot at the British Museum, the reason it looks so good is that I was able to go to the second floor and shoot out of a window, so the camera was nearly perfectly level, minimizing perspective distortion.

 

Here's a shot of a floor mosaic at the Getty Villa in Malibu, California. Here you can see that the inherent distortion is relatively low, as the triangles look quite good all the way to the corners.

 

 

Jeff

[frank_dernie]

'Way back when the Epson R-D1 was the only digital RF, Sean Reid noted that the 12mm had better edge performance than the 15mm (but the 15 was a tad sharper in the middle). That appears to bear out on the M9 - most of the examples I've seen from the 12mm have less red-edge probalems than those from my 15mm.

 

I could crop "15mm" images out of these 12mm samples and lose the red edge altogether.

 

I can confirm this, I have had 15 and 12 since they were released and used them on RD1, M8 and M9. The 12 is -much- more retrofocus than the 15 so one would expect fewer problems on a digital sensor. I don't use the 15 any more, too compromised on digital.

Frank

[Alnitak]

I can confirm this, I have had 15 and 12 since they were released and used them on RD1, M8 and M9. The 12 is -much- more retrofocus than the 15 so one would expect fewer problems on a digital sensor. I don't use the 15 any more, too compromised on digital.

Frank

 

Hence the reduced red edge issues as well. Like you, the 15mm is no longer in my bag. I will say that on an M8 it was fine, but not on the M9.

 

Jeff

[frank_dernie]

Thanks Moritz. I want to stress, however, that I feel the overall distortion of the lens is realtively low, but because of how wide it is, perspective distortion is quite easily enhanced. In the case of the indoor shot at the British Museum, the reason it looks so good is that I was able to go to the second floor and shoot out of a window, so the camera was nearly perfectly level, minimizing perspective distortion.

 

Here's a shot of a floor mosaic at the Getty Villa in Malibu, California. Here you can see that the inherent distortion is relatively low, as the triangles look quite good all the way to the corners.

 

 

Jeff

 

I quite agree, the inherent distortion in the 12mm lens is extremely low but it is difficult to hold the camera precisely enough to avoid perspective distortion, which is nothing to do with optics, simply camera alignment and lens angle of view. I bought the CV spirit level which mounts along with the VF in an adapter in the shoe, clumsy but effective. Unfortunately the spirit level dried out after about 18 months, disappointingly. The same thing happened to the spirit level in the 43mm viewfinder for Mamiya 7, extremely annoying.

Frank

[twittle]

I've wanted a superwide for some time, and now that this will be available in M-mount and coupled, I'm intrigued.

 

The posted examples are very nice, by the way, particularly the arcade ceiling and the British Museum.

[Mark Pope]

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"

Walter: please excuse my ignorance, but what is a "centering filter"?

 

A centering or centre-spot filter is has a graduated neutral-density central spot. This helps to compensate for vignetting by darkening the centre of the image.

 

HTH

 

Mark

[Mauribix]

Unfortunately the spirit level dried out after about 18 months, disappointingly. The same thing happened to the spirit level in the 43mm viewfinder for Mamiya 7, extremely annoying.

 

 

Frank, where do you live?

Too dry or... too cold? :D:D

[Alnitak]

Frank, where do you live?

Too dry or... too cold? :D:D

 

I have heard at least half a dozen people say the same thing about the CV bubble level. I have it, and I hope it doesn't dry out on me; it's very handy.

[Mauribix]

I have heard at least half a dozen people say the same thing about the CV bubble level. I have it, and I hope it doesn't dry out on me; it's very handy.

 

I have no doubt it's true. I apologize, no offense indeed.

 

Here, it's damn hot on summer so I guess my bubble dried out for the same reason... by the way, winter here is really freezing as well but we got the same bubble dried out... the difference is that the spirit came in hand at least...

[Jerry_R]

I still ask myself - if to buy 15mm now or wait for the M 12mm ;-)

I found also this thread: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/41294-vc-12mm-vc-15mm-get.html

 

Jeff,

pls post some more 12mm samples or give a link? Could you also make one photo, with sth in front of lens, centrally, as close as focusing allows? Ideally person, but can be sth else too, of course..

 

Anyone having both - could show same comparison of one subject taken with each of them?

 

I also found:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/12mm.shtml

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/15mm-voigt.shtml

[adan]

"sth"?

[lars_bergquist]

Please ... some good people here seem to be a bit confused about 'distortion'.

 

Lots of lenses have linear distortion. This means that straight lines that do not pass through the optical center of the lens/image are rendered slightly curved. If they bend outward, you have barrel distortion. If they bend inward, there's pincushion distortion. Process lenses and most real macro lenses are not allowed to have any linear distortion. Everyday lenses often have about 1 percent distortion, which is normally not noticeable. Very wide lenses can have more, up to 3 percent. If you want a lens with a 180° field, you must allow lots of barrel distortion. Otherwise, objects in the corners would have to be pictured infinitely large! Such lenses are called fisheye lenses.

 

But the effect on those pictures of St. Paul's has nothing to do with linear distortion. Even a lens with no linear distortion at all would show it. This effect is something called 'perspective', and the cause is simply that the photographer has not levelled the camera. He is aiming it slightly upward. This has the inevitable consequence that the front portal is closer to the camera, and is thus reproduced larger, than the spires which are farther away and are reproduced smaller.

 

This is just as when you shoot along a railway line, and the distance beween the rails seems to shrink in the distance. Only here the 'distance diminution' works in the vertical dimension too, and it has a chance to do that just because with a superwide lens, there's much more of all dimensions -- more space.

 

ALL lenses do exhibit that effect, because it is not a property of any lens, but a property of space itself. But the effect becomes more noticeable with a wide angle lens than with a 50mm, and very noticeable indeed with a superwide, simply because wider lenses take in more space! With a 50mm used from the same point, the spires would have been equally far away of course -- but you would not have seen them in the picture.

 

The old man from the Age of Tilt-Shift Cameras

[adan]

Like Lars said - with these additions:

 

Keystoning is the best term for the "tilt" effect one sees shooting with a wideangle at anything other than "straight and level" Whether it be shooting down at railroad tracks or up at buildings.

 

Even a fisheye lens will show keystoning, as will a perfectly corrected Super-Angulon.

 

It is basically a mapping problem, not much different from trying to produce a flat map of our spherical world. Use a severe crop (90mm lens, or a map of just 100 square miles/kms) and the lines stay pretty straight. Go for a wide view (the whole earth on one map, or a 12mm lens) and you have to distort reality in some way to get it to fit. You cannot simultaneously get area, shape, and linear lines to be "right" - something has to give.

 

Map projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Map makers use a whole host of projections, depending on whether the map is to be used for short-range navigation, global navigation, presenting statistics, and so on.

 

In lenses, we basically use two projections. Rectilinear lenses (at their best) keep lines parallel to the image plane parallel/perpendicular to each other, and straight, but distort shapes and areas. Fisheye lenses, or poorly corrected attempts at rectilinear lenses, bend lines but preserve small shapes better (less oblong heads in the corners).

 

In the vernacular, it is all distortion - in the technical sense, only linear distortion is what lens makers put on charts and architects complain about.

 

IMHO - a fisheye lens gives the most "accurate" extreme-wide view of the universe. If you stand on a street and look right the horizontal lines converge to your right, and if you look left, the lines converge to your left.

 

A classic "panned" (Widelux) panorama picture will curve the lines to converge left and right in exactly the same way. A classic panned panorama will curve vertical lines, if the camera is held vertically to take in all of a tall subject. http://www.kevinfreitas.net/img/20070318-tacoma-narrows-vert.jpg or A vertical panorama - forest in fall - Photography by Paul van Roekel

 

A fisheye lens is just making panoramas in all directions simultaneously (thus curving lines to meet at an infinity of vanishing points around the edges of the picture). That's why virtual-reality shooters favor fisheyes. For an all-around look, they are more "accurate" than rectilinear lenses.

 

But for 2D images, we've been programmed by looking at centuries of images using "classical perspective" where lines, parallel or converging, are always straight. It works, but introduces its own distortions. Something has to give.

[Jerry_R]

sth - I meant something

 

Eg: http://lh6.ggpht.com/_d9ekXogbiiA/Sw3tijzuHVI/AAAAAAAADi0/J0Zatz-ej8Q/s640/2009-11-26%20%5B04-32-46%5D.jpg

[therbert]

I think that all these pictures are great. I'm not at all bothered by converging verticals. I'm waiting anxiously for my M9 to arrive, more so now because of the photos posted.

[Alnitak]

I still ask myself - if to buy 15mm now or wait for the M 12mm ;-)

I found also this thread: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/41294-vc-12mm-vc-15mm-get.html

 

Jeff,

pls post some more 12mm samples or give a link? Could you also make one photo, with sth in front of lens, centrally, as close as focusing allows? Ideally person, but can be sth else too, of course..

 

Anyone having both - could show same comparison of one subject taken with each of them?

 

I also found:

12mm

Voigtlander 15mm Heliar and Leica M8

 

Jerry,

 

Here's a few more shots with this lens:

 

Voigtlander Ultra-Wide Heliar 12mm f/5.6 - a set on Flickr

 

I will try to get a portrait shot tomorrow with this lens per your request and will post that here then. It's not how I use that lens or how I would recommend using it, but everyone has their own style.

 

I had the 15mm before, and really loved it on the M8.2, but its just not workable on the M9 without using CornerFix. I got the WATE and sold the 15--the WATE has no red edge issues, less vignetting, is slightly faster at f/4, and has the fabulous flexibility of being a continuous zoom between 16-21mm.

 

The 12mm is a different story. There are no other modern options for this focal length. Luckily, it does not have as bad a problem with red edges as the 15mm, and I am OK with doing a little extra post-processing with CornerFix for those times where I really want that 12mm look.

 

Jeff

[Alnitak]

Thanks to Lars and Andy for giving more detailed explanations than I did. The bottom line is that this lens has very little linear distortion. If you don't like the perspective distortion, then the M-mount world is a problem, as there are no tilt-shift lens solutions. Personally I like the perspective distortion and generally to exploit it in those shots where its unavoidable.

 

Jeff

[lars_bergquist]

Thanks to Lars and Andy for giving more detailed explanations than I did. The bottom line is that this lens has very little linear distortion. If you don't like the perspective distortion, then the M-mount world is a problem, as there are no tilt-shift lens solutions. Personally I like the perspective distortion and generally to exploit it in those shots where its unavoidable.

 

Jeff

I do sometimes shoot pictures with superwide lenses where I get enough field vertically even with the camera levelled, but too much boring foreground. So I just crop out the foreground, leaving a 'false panorama'. Why not? Cheating? People who object to this on moral grounds do probably also put pants on their table legs, for reasons of propriety.

 

Pictures with heavy keystoning were all the rage around 1932. People tired of them pretty soon. I am still tired of them.

 

The old man from the Age of the 3.5cm Elmar

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jerry_R]

Thanks Jeff! It seems I need both ;-)

I think I will just buy first 15mm which is available as M already today.

 

The 12mm is a different story. [...] Luckily, it does not have as bad a problem with red edges as the 15mm, and I am OK with doing a little extra post-processing with CornerFix for those times where I really want that 12mm look.

I don't fully understand. From one side 12mm doesn't show red edges, but from other side you want to process it with CornerFix? What is reason? If for removing vignette - why not RAW developer soft?