Rick Posted July 25, 2011 Share #261 Posted July 25, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Rick, if I failed to understand your point the first time, I'm definitely failing to understand it now. How on earth would having one kit or another equate to snapping everything you see? How on earth would having one perfect kit or another equate to anything else other than trying to be able to snap everything you see? At some point will we ever have a thread that relates the gear to a personal creative process? Or, is just going to be one monotonous thread after another about lists of lenses? Isn't there more to the perfect kit to be discussed? Wouldn't it be much more interesting to hear about how some of the great photographers use their lenses to create something? Maybe, every once in a while they would tell us how they choose their lenses based on some creative vision, rather than one focal length being too close to another? Maybe no one cares, and I know you state you fail to understand this, which is fine, you take great pictures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 Hi Rick, Take a look here the perfect travel kit. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rick Posted July 25, 2011 Share #262 Posted July 25, 2011 Any valid points you may have been making Rick are, frankly, completely lost in amongst your slightly aggressive, patronising and uncivil manner. It's a shame, apparently you're a good photographer and we could all learn a lot from you. But only if you're willing to teach and not preach. I'm not a good photographer at all, in the grander scheme of things. But, I'd sure like to get more out of this thread than a list. I don't have anything to teach. I still struggle with the non-creative side of my brain over ruling the creative side. Like I've said many times before, if I want a good picture of something I hand the camera to my wife. As to the rest of your statements about me, sorry my frustration came across that way. I guess I just ended up derailing the thread and I can see where it might be going if I stay. I'll leave now... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 25, 2011 Share #263 Posted July 25, 2011 Any valid points you may have been making Rick are, frankly, completely lost in amongst your slightly aggressive, patronising and uncivil manner. It's a shame, apparently you're a good photographer and we could all learn a lot from you. But only if you're willing to teach and not preach. I'm not a good photographer at all, in the grander scheme of things. But, I'd sure like to get more out of this thread than a list. I don't have anything to teach. I still struggle with the non-creative side of my brain over ruling the creative side. Like I've said many times before, if I want a good picture of something I hand the camera to my wife. As to the rest of your statements about me, sorry my frustration came across that way. I guess I just ended up derailing the thread and I can see where it might be going if I stay. I'll leave now... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
denoir Posted July 25, 2011 Share #264 Posted July 25, 2011 How on earth would having one perfect kit or another equate to anything else other than trying to be able to snap everything you see? Rick, I still don't get what you mean by this. When planning on shooting a subject you a) don't always know in advance what the full scene will look like and you don't always get to choose your vantage point. I typically choose lenses to fit my creative vision and not the other way around. Focal length is certainly not the only parameter that dictates the choice of lens, but it is an important one as it affects the type of composition that you will do. You generally don't use an ultra wide angle the same way you use a tele lens. Having said that, on occasion I've found it to be healthy to in fact let the choice of lens help the creative process. For instance if I've been shooting say a 28 mm lens for a longer time, I might switch to a 90mm in order to force myself to start thinking about different possible approaches to the subject. This again however speaks in the favor of having a varied selection of lenses. The only argument I can see for not having a large kit is a practical one - weight and space. It's a valid and important argument, but I don't really see how it is related to the creative process. At some point will we ever have a thread that relates the gear to a personal creative process? Or, is just going to be one monotonous thread after another about lists of lenses? Isn't there more to the perfect kit to be discussed? Wouldn't it be much more interesting to hear about how some of the great photographers use their lenses to create something? Maybe, every once in a while they would tell us how they choose their lenses based on some creative vision, rather than one focal length being too close to another? I don't see how you can have it both ways. Either it's personal and then it won't be of use to anybody else or it will be dry and technical. I could tell you that I love using the 50 Lux ASPH because it is 'magical' and that I love the rendering, but that would be fairly useless. Or I could alternatively show you the MTF charts for the 35 Lux ASPH and ZM 35/2 Biogon and show you how the 40 lp/mm lines show why I prefer the ZM for landscapes. The micro contrast in the high frequency components is higher and more even across the frame making it accentuate fine details such as surface textures. The 35 Lux on the other hand suffers from quite a bit of field curvature at infinity and it has a generally lower and uneven contrast in the fine detail. So I avoid using it for traditional landscape photography with the lens stopped down and focus at infinity but really like it at wide apertures and for more '3D' subjects. I could post a number of graphs and discuss it all in detail. In fact I and others do this on a regular basis on the FM alt gear forum, but somehow I never got the impression that people here were interested in such detailed technical discussions. It's as far from personal that you'll get - it's an objective analysis of the tools. I make the ultimate choice of lens on the spot when I see the subject based on the situation at hand, the lenses I have with me and everything I know about their rending style as well as their optical strengths and weaknesses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted July 25, 2011 Share #265 Posted July 25, 2011 I make the ultimate choice of lens on the spot when I see the subject based on the situation at hand, the lenses I have with me and everything I know about their rending style as well as their optical strengths and weaknesses. It's a difference in philosophy. Some of us would rather stretch our minds than strain our backs. For those who think this way it is stimulating and challenging to work a subject with a single focal length, a single lens. It is liberating, not restricting. I trust myself to bring back halfway decent images with a single lens. I do not feel the need to hedge my bets with a bagful of glass. I believe in my vision, and I work to master my chosen tools. I don't actually need an arsenal of lenses - I can only use one at a time, after all. I am not right, by the way, in the same way as you are not wrong. I am just different in my approach. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
denoir Posted July 25, 2011 Share #266 Posted July 25, 2011 Bill, sure, the difference in philosophy is why I think there is value in threads like this. It's not necessarily useful information, but nevertheless interesting. I try to have an as result oriented approach as possible. If the result isn't important, like regular walkaround photography I usually pick either just a 35mm lens (usually the Lux ASPH) or a set of three lenses (28/50/90). Then there's no pressure to actually get some specific shot. If the lens I have with me is not suitable for something..so what. On the other hand like on my last trip I'm visiting 9 national parks in three weeks, don't get to choose the time of day to shoot and only get to shoot from very well known viewpoints then I really make sure that I have as many options as possible when it comes to the choice of lenses. And even with that one has to work hard to finding some type of creative approach in places that have been photographed to death. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 26, 2011 Share #267 Posted July 26, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I gain a lot from hearing what choices others make, and on what basis. I'm afraid that necessarily starts with base kit (you do need a camera body, and some like to have a back up), and then the interesting bit is the lenses. It may just be a case of what you have, but that seems to me to be okay. Some ascribe some hair-shirted virtue out of repeating Capa, and saying I just use one lens and use my feet. Well, good on you! But I don't think it's particularly helpful or relevant, unless you're saying understand your lenses, and look at the potential picture rather than fool around with your gear. This point is only of passing interest. We do know that most of the historically legendary Leica photographers did use more than one lens, at a time when they didn't have the choice of quality lenses we have today. But then, Rick doesn't like gear lists, so I'll play ball. When planning for a trip, my first consideration is whether I'm going to be allowed to take anything bigger than an iPhone. Then, the following goes through my mind: (1) space is a premium, so covering every focal length will not be possible. So what focal lengths will be useful for what I am likely to encounter? (2) what speeds I'm like to need? do I need to lug a 21 Summilux? or will a slower lens do? (3) what lenses do I like and will I use? Now, in the lists above that Rick complains about, I see people doing exactly this. Sure, I try to understand what pictures the posters like to take. But at the end of the day, you have to assume that each poster has a choice of lenses - not an unreasonable assessment. For myself, I'm interested in hearing what lenses others would leave behind, and what they would take. For the true expert, they will say "I love the rendering of this lens, and I'm likely to encounter this sort of light and want his sort of composition" - Pffftt! Yeah, right ... I have learned a lot from this discussion - thank you to the contributors. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmldds Posted July 26, 2011 Share #268 Posted July 26, 2011 For short trips, 35 Lux pre-asph, 75 Lux, spare batteries, cards. For long trips, the same + tripod, 25 Zeiss Biogon, 13-in Macbook pro, card reader, charger for camera, power cord for Mac. Tri:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 26, 2011 Share #269 Posted July 26, 2011 For short trips, 35 Lux pre-asph, 75 Lux, spare batteries, cards. For long trips, the same + tripod, 25 Zeiss Biogon, 13-in Macbook pro, card reader, charger for camera, power cord for Mac. Tri:) Tri, you "short trip version" is, what I have been thinking about, if the 75mm can potentially take away my love for my favorite, all the time with me 50/1. Until now, no other lens could. The way, I am more and more annoyed by the cold and heartless look of the 35 Lux ASPH images, I am looking forward, if the pre ASPH v2 is my medicine - I will love the compactness and weight … I am sure about that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 26, 2011 Share #270 Posted July 26, 2011 Yes Tri, you've hit on something that I'm in agreement with. After 35 and 75 the next thing is a tripod. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted July 26, 2011 Share #271 Posted July 26, 2011 At some point will we ever have a thread that relates the gear to a personal creative process? Or, is just going to be one monotonous thread after another about lists of lenses? Isn't there more to the perfect kit to be discussed? Wouldn't it be much more interesting to hear about how some of the great photographers use their lenses to create something? Maybe, every once in a while they would tell us how they choose their lenses based on some creative vision, rather than one focal length being too close to another? Maybe no one cares, and I know you state you fail to understand this, which is fine, you take great pictures. You have to get off of the Internet forums to accomplish this, I know I have to in order to have these discussions. I attend gatherings of people I consider mentors and icons and set the bar high. Otherwise, it's gets SO badly skewed because you are dealing with a group of people who's talent level is on par with the rest of the Internet photo craze and it becomes one big gear centric "Great Capture" love fest, nearly the farthest thing from what you are looking for there could possibly be. Seriously, attend Look3 or Perpignan and see what an enormous difference it is in terms of real photography and real discussion. You just can't expect that from a gear driven forum.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 26, 2011 Share #272 Posted July 26, 2011 You have to get off of the Internet forums to accomplish this, I know I have to in order to have these discussions. I attend gatherings of people I consider mentors and icons and set the bar high. Otherwise, it's gets SO badly skewed because you are dealing with a group of people who's talent level is on par with the rest of the Internet photo craze and it becomes one big gear centric "Great Capture" love fest, nearly the farthest thing from what you are looking for there could possibly be. Seriously, attend Look3 or Perpignan and see what an enormous difference it is in terms of real photography and real discussion. You just can't expect that from a gear driven forum.. +1 and I couldn't agree more. I've looked elsewhere for the real photographic discussions and I don't expect them in here. In fact I get very annoyed at people who attempt to belittle the technical discussion's here when talk is not surprisingly "dedicated to everything around the new Leica M9." It's such a lame attempt at one-up-manship. In order to master a tool, and have it become like an extension of your arm and eye, you need to understand the technical. Some more so, some less so. At the very least an appreciation of the three exposure variables (not art, but technical). How to place the exposure using the tool you have (not art, but technical), how fast a lens is and how that limits DOF (not art, technical) etc. You see the trend? And if my recent art discussions with someone whom I respect a tremendous amount have led me to understand anything, it's that the greats, the masters - all had a staggeringly solid understanding and control over the technical aspect of their chosen art forms. Someone who dismiss's the technical for some higher "arty" position is only, in my opinion, exposing how little they know about the subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted July 26, 2011 Share #273 Posted July 26, 2011 LoL! I'm flattered if that is supposed to mean me. I think you will find that "the masters" - shouldn't that be capitalised and spoken in hushed tones with an organ playing a minor chord in the background? Had a competent grasp of technology and technique but were then disinclined to let the tool dictate the theme. I met Bailey once at an Olympus product launch. He was surrounded by "anoraks" asking him what he thought of the MTF graphs for a newly-released lens. I have seldom seen a man so pissed off. Tool or toy, the quiver of lenses you choose to burden yourself with is simply clutter if you do not use your mind more than you use the lens release button. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
denoir Posted July 26, 2011 Share #274 Posted July 26, 2011 Not wanting to know the tools you use is the hallmark of ineptness. Taking pride in such ineptness is worth nothing but contempt. Photography is both an art and a craft and both are important. Unfortunately in photography, like in many other arts post-modernism has been embraced in certain art circles. It essentially boils down to that if something looks like crap and reeks of incompetence then it must be art. The origin of this are artistic frauds that take advantage of the insecurities of some people. It's the modern version of the Emperor's new clothes. Some people think that because they can't understand something that it must be something very special. And it gives them a feeling of exclusivity when they convince themselves that they understand it. It's a fraud both by the "artist" and the followers. Ultimately this crap spreads to wider circles and to amateurs and this whole "I'm an artist and I don't care about technical details" attitude is proliferated. Not knowing something can be excused but taking pride in not knowing something is just vile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 26, 2011 Share #275 Posted July 26, 2011 No need to be flattered Bill, I wasn't referring to you. Nor was I referring to Bailey. Consider it a point missed I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmith Posted July 26, 2011 Share #276 Posted July 26, 2011 I consider photography a craft with which it may be possible to produce art. Alwyn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucisPictor Posted July 26, 2011 Share #277 Posted July 26, 2011 I love those "travel set" threads! Generally, an M9 with the combo Elmarit 2.8/21 asph., Summilux 1.4/50 and Elmarit 2.8/90 seems to be perfect. Perhaps complemented with a Summicron 2/35 and a Leica M4-2 (as a film backup). Since I do not own any of those items , my lightweight set (leaving the R-lenses and DSLRs at home) would look like this: Leica Digilux 2 Sony NEX-3 Sony 1.8/16 CCTV 1.7/35 Leica Summarit 2/50 Leica Elmar 4/90 Leica Hektor 4.5/135 and either a Leica C2 or a Minox 35GL as a film cam backup. All this fits into a small bag and does not weigh much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted July 26, 2011 Share #278 Posted July 26, 2011 Not wanting to know the tools you use is the hallmark of ineptness. Taking pride in such ineptness is worth nothing but contempt. Do you mean ineptitude? This is a prime example of making a sweeping assumption. I would rather understand than obsess, rather rely upon technique than technology. A focus on the tool is ultimately sterile. The tool is simply a means to an end. You can know all the statistics, like a schoolboy with a Top Trumps deck, but it won't make you a better photographer. Knowing the performance figures for a Formula One car doesn't mean you know how to drive it. Regards. Bill (proud to be "vile" ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 26, 2011 Share #279 Posted July 26, 2011 Bill, out of interest. How does one become a "Leica Ambassador"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
freusen Posted July 26, 2011 Share #280 Posted July 26, 2011 ...........for short trips: 35mm Lux & 75mm Lux............. A perfect travel kit don't exist, but if I was limited to just 2 lenses I would take a 35/75mm or 28/50mm combo with me. If you take two bodies (0.85VF for 35mm & 0.58VF for 75mm), you don't need to change lenses (no dust or rain into the camerabody). It's nice to have Summiluxes with you for indoor shots (i.c. churches), but I would also take the 28mm & 50mm Summicrons or Summarits, because they are smaller and lighter and for outdoor shots f/2.0 is enough. ____________ FrankR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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