Sean Reid's X1 Part 2 Review is up

[barjohn]

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Sean,

I have reread your review for the third time ( ) and I take back my earlier assessment of your review. I now see that your preference toward zone shooting influencing the flavor of your review. Your discussion on AF did discuss the slowness and you did mention being able move the focus point around. Thanks,

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[Daniel Ortego]

Without question, this X1 thread is the most informative and somewhat interactive thread I’ve read to date. Having owned an M8 with Leica primes I have learned to keep my options open when it comes to Leica’s boutique pricing. I find all this talk of the X1 capabilities, shortfalls and cost/value analysis to be very sobering.

Regards,

Dan

[Guest stnami]

Most buyers will not have the photographic skills of reviewers so too many times the buyer is disappointed with the results achieved, most do not want to fiddle with apertures and speed, lags etc. Sure argue that people have to learn and practice but most have other interests in life than grappling with 2003 shutter technology

[hexar]

If in manual focus "snap shot mode" the distance can be only set till 2 metres we will have a very limited use of this. e.g. As Sean is using mostly F8 at this setting this means at 2 metres the dof will be from 1.29 - 4.43 metres wich is usible in some circumstances but if you would be able to set the "snap mode" at 4 metres you would have 1.90 metres to infinity (hyperfocal distance at this aperture is 3.62 metres) This would be a very good point if Sean could stimulate LEICA to go from minimum distance in 50 cm steps to let's say 6 or 8 metres. Full use of "snap mode' would make this camera a super street shooter with this tweek.

Do you agree SEAN and why do LEICA engineers not have these ideas when developing such a camera. They do have DOF tables themselves I assume ?

In case SEAN the shutter lag issue can be solved and also the distance scale in MF mode can be extended the AF speed issue still remains. Is this a pure contrast detection unsolvable issue or can this be tweeked with software as well ?

Let's face it at this price level we should see near phase detection speed on AF. Or am I over asking 2009 technology now ?

[nhabedi]

Let's face it at this price level we should see near phase detection speed on AF. Or am I over asking 2009 technology now ?

 

I think at this time you can't expect that from contrast AF. What you could hope for would be the speed of the class-leading cameras which right now seem to be those from Panasonic. It seems - from what we hear - the X1 isn't quite there yet, though. (One explanation would be that the X1's AF technology is not from Panasonic or at least not their latest. Another one could be that it gets more difficult to achieve high contrast AF speed with larger sensors.)

[barjohn]

I think it is a combination of factors. The sensor size, speed of the electronics processor, how good the software is and the speed of the motor that drives the focus. All have to be optimized to achieve fact contrast detect AF. If the focusing motor is slow or the processor is slow, then nothing can change the AF speed at this point. If it is just poor software or algorithm design then there is hope. One half to 1 second slower than the GF1 is far too slow for me. Sean has not indicated that AF speed has improved with version 1.0 so unless he posts otherwise I think we have to conclude it will stay slow.

[sean_reid]

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If in manual focus "snap shot mode" the distance can be only set till 2 metres we will have a very limited use of this. e.g. As Sean is using mostly F8 at this setting this means at 2 metres the dof will be from 1.29 - 4.43 metres wich is usible in some circumstances but if you would be able to set the "snap mode" at 4 metres you would have 1.90 metres to infinity (hyperfocal distance at this aperture is 3.62 metres) This would be a very good point if Sean could stimulate LEICA to go from minimum distance in 50 cm steps to let's say 6 or 8 metres. Full use of "snap mode' would make this camera a super street shooter with this tweek.

Do you agree SEAN and why do LEICA engineers not have these ideas when developing such a camera. They do have DOF tables themselves I assume ?

In case SEAN the shutter lag issue can be solved and also the distance scale in MF mode can be extended the AF speed issue still remains. Is this a pure contrast detection unsolvable issue or can this be tweeked with software as well ?

Let's face it at this price level we should see near phase detection speed on AF. Or am I over asking 2009 technology now ?

 

1) We can manually focus the camera beyond 2 meters, of course, but what I'm asking Leica to consider is a revision of the focus scale that has markings at, say, 3, 4 and 5 meters. I'm conferencing with them about this and other potential firmware changes this morning (though it is Sunday).

2) The full press shutter lag, as discussed in the latest version of the review, is tied to review image display. If only happens if a review image is still up when the shutter is pressed. This is another topic for the phone conference.

 

 

Cheers,

Sean Reid

[hexar]

Thanks for your reply Sean re MF distance. Ofcourse this was what I meant with the focus scale indications. So thanks for comply and effort to stimultate HElLSA to add to the focus scale (Till 10 metres would be ideal I guess in relation to the 24 mm and F2.8.

Re second part of my posting could you comment on that as well please ?

(technical software issue faster AF)

Thanks for your very appreciated tribute and know how.

[sean_reid]

Re second part of my posting could you comment on that as well please ?

(technical software issue faster AF)

Thanks for your very appreciated tribute and know how.

 

Could you please restate the question so I know what you're asking?

[hexar]

Sorry that I seem to be unclear.

The question I have is if the slow AF ( I understood that slow in this camera means not faster than average for a P&S) can be fixed also by sofware tweeks , like the shutter lag, or is this something so much more complicated that we can`t expect any major improvements here in the final market version ?

My point is that one would expect a (near) phase detection AF speed from a camera of this price level.

[barjohn]

Let me add to the above question, is the slow speed (I think you said 1/2 sec to 1 sec sower than the GF1 with 20mm pancake) due to the speed of the focusing motor ( a good example is the difference between the Panny 20mm f1.7 lens and the Panyy 14-45mm lens where the latter is probably 2-3 times faster due to a faster focusing motor) or is it due to the processor that must process the signal as it does a closed loop operation (moving the lens fist too far then too short as it narrows in on the right point) or due to software that is not optimized to the job? If it is the latter then firmware upgrades might fix the problem; however if the focus motor is too slow (it can't move the lens in and out quickly enough) or the processor is too slow (it takes it too long to process each image to compare contrast from one position to the next) then it is not likely that it can be fixed since the latter two require hardware changes.

[sean_reid]

Let me add to the above question, is the slow speed...due to the speed of the focusing motor ( a good example is the difference between the Panny 20mm f1.7 lens and the Panyy 14-45mm lens where the latter is probably 2-3 times faster due to a faster focusing motor) or is it due to the processor that must process the signal as it does a closed loop operation (moving the lens fist too far then too short as it narrows in on the right point) or due to software that is not optimized to the job? If it is the latter then firmware upgrades might fix the problem; however if the focus motor is too slow (it can't move the lens in and out quickly enough) or the processor is too slow (it takes it too long to process each image to compare contrast from one position to the next) then it is not likely that it can be fixed since the latter two require hardware changes.

 

Hi John,

 

Quite simply, I don't know.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Most buyers will not have the photographic skills of reviewers so too many times the buyer is disappointed with the results achieved, most do not want to fiddle with apertures and speed, lags etc. Sure argue that people have to learn and practice but most have other interests in life than grappling with 2003 shutter technology

 

Hi Imants,

 

Just for the record...in testing with the new firmware I found that the shutter lag (full press) comes when the camera is displaying a review image. Otherwise, the lag times (FW 1.00) generally compare well with the GF1 for example. You may not have seen this update in the review or another thread.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

If in manual focus "snap shot mode" the distance can be only set till 2 metres we will have a very limited use of this. e.g. As Sean is using mostly F8 at this setting

 

I often use F/8 for zone focus with many cameras (small sensor cameras excepted) but of course one can work with a number of different apertures.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

IAnother one could be that it gets more difficult to achieve high contrast AF speed with larger sensors.)

 

That, it turns out, is a very perceptive comment. I've been learning more about that very subject and hope to be able to publish about it in the future.

 

Think about contrast detection AF speed in other cameras that use APS-C and larger sensors - your hunch is on the money based on what I've been learning recently.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

 

Hi John,

 

Too soon to say.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest stnami]

and the AF is ...? Consider that many will buy it for that feature and there is no manual control on the lens. Most people are not into zone/ hyper focal etc those that are are m8/9 buyers, film photographers and the interested DSLR crowd

 

The AF will be important

[sean_reid]

Sorry that I seem to be unclear.

The question I have is if the slow AF ( I understood that slow in this camera means not faster than average for a P&S) can be fixed also by sofware tweeks , like the shutter lag, or is this something so much more complicated that we can`t expect any major improvements here in the final market version ?

My point is that one would expect a (near) phase detection AF speed from a camera of this price level.

 

The answer isn't simple. Let's see what happens with subsequent firmware. Phase detection is a whole other ball game of course.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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[sean_reid]

and the AF is ...? Consider that many will buy it for that feature and there is no manual control on the lens. Most people are not into zone/ hyper focal etc those that are are m8/9 buyers, film photographers and the interested DSLR crowd

 

The AF will be important

 

Yes, the AF is important but I'm not sure what you're asking in your first question. Manual focus control is on the rear wheel. So, of course, there are three options.

 

1. AF

2. MF using the magnified screen view (once the camera is "seeing" that at F/2.8)

3. Zone focus

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest stnami]

1) Most people have no interest in Zone focusing

 

2)MF using the magnified screen view (once the camera is "seeing" that at F/2.8) probably not a good solution, lens focusing is quicker.

 

3) How quick/slow is the AF? .......considering that is a reason for getting a camera of this nature .......