Epson Perfection V750 pro - banding on dense negatives

[nhabedi]

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I have a problem with some (black-and-white 35mm) negatives on my Epson Perfection V750 pro scanner. If the negatives are pretty dense (i.e. overexposed), then I sometimes see stripes (or bands) near the edges of the frame. I'll add links to two examples at the end of this message. This problem does not go away if I change the position or the orientation of the negative on the scanner although the stripes might be in a different position depending on where the negative was. Also, you can't get rid of the problem by turning the negative upside down. Also, although both examples are Tri-X, this is happening with different films developed by different labs. Needless to say, these stripes are not on the negatives themselves.

 

Has anyone else seen this? Any ideas how to cope with this? One idea that I had was that I see some kind of reflection maybe because the negatives aren't 100% flat. They aren't extremely bent, though, just maybe a little bit. I hope you're not going to tell me to try wet-mounting the negs because I always though that would be too much work...

 

Thanks,

Edi.

 

In the first image, there's one stripe near the top edge.

 

 

In the second image, there are two stripes near the left edge and three stripes near the bottom edge. Here, the stripes are also more concave than in the previous example.

 

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Questions:

 

(1) Do you use a holder for the negatives or do you place them on the glass?

(2) what was the orientation of the negatives with respect to the scanning carriage?

[nhabedi]

(1) Do you use a holder for the negatives or do you place them on the glass?

(2) what was the orientation of the negatives with respect to the scanning carriage?

 

(1) I use the 35mm film holder that came with the scanner. Haven't tried without it yet as I wouldn't know how to keep the negatives flat without Newton glass.

 

(2) As I said, I tried all sorts of orientation, i.e. first as described in the manual, then the other way around (so that you have to rotate the image afterwards), and then even upside down (so that you have to mirror the image afterwards). It changes the position of the stripes on the scanned image, but they don't vanish.

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Do the stripes, then remain on the same side with respect to the scanner? E.g., are they always on the side nearer to the hinge?

 

At a first guess I would think of light reflected off the edges of the film strip holder. Are they glossy at all?

[nhabedi]

Do the stripes, then remain on the same side with respect to the scanner? E.g., are they always on the side nearer to the hinge?

 

I think that could be the case, have to check again. Although, as can be seen in the second example, I sometimes have horizontal as well vertical stripes. (But never stripes on opposite edges of the same negative, so - yes - this could be related to reflections from the film holder.)

 

At a first guess I would think of light reflected off the edges of the film strip holder. Are they glossy at all?

 

It's black plastic with some kind of structured surface, probably to avoid reflections. I wouldn't call it "glossy" but I could imagine that the holder reflects a bit of light. Maybe I should somehow try without the holder for comparison.

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Maybe I should somehow try without the holder for comparison.

 

You might place a sheet of black paper between the glass and the holder, with a window cot out which is about 2mm smaller on each side than the cutout in the holder. That would mask or "shadow" the edges of the holder.

 

Have you sought advice from Epson?

[nhabedi]

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You might place a sheet of black paper between the glass and the holder, with a window cot out which is about 2mm smaller on each side than the cutout in the holder. That would mask or "shadow" the edges of the holder.

 

Sounds a bit fiddly, but I might try that, thanks. I'll first try without a holder to see if that makes a difference.

 

Have you sought advice from Epson?

 

Not yet. I was hoping someone else had this problem and solved it somehow. Frankly, I don't expect good advice from Epson. Not that I've had bad experience, but from a company of that size I'd be surprised if they answered at all (apart from the kind of standard messages you typically get from "support" personnel).

[peterv]

Hi Edi,

 

the more concave stripes are from reflections on the side of the negative if you scan for example 4 negatives. The side that does not fit all the way 'in' the negative-holder is always the one with the concave stripes.

 

It took me a while to figure this out...

But now it doesn't bother me anymore. If the photo is worthwhile, I will have the lab do a pro scan...

 

As for the stripe near the top edge, I too get that sometimes. In my example the scan was done by a pro lab, not the Epson at home. When I called them to ask about the stripe they had three possible causes:

- the film did not dry up like it should have

- the film had been in the developing machine to tight

- the film had been x-rayed

 

Hope this helps, kind regards, Peter

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[nhabedi]

Peter, thanks for your help, but this doesn't apply to my case. First of all, the stripes in the second example were from a negative which was in the middle of the strip - it had neighbors on both sides. And, secondly, as I said the stripes are not on the negative, no X-Rays, no accidents during development. This is easily proved by the fact that the stripes are near the top of the picture or near the bottom of the picture depending on the orientation during the scan.

 

But I've made some more experiments now:

 

You can't just put the negatives directly on the glass plate and scan them, that will confuse the scanner. You have to use the "film area guide" which is intended for 8x10 negatives. But even with this guide, it's hard to get it right. It's hard to align the negatives so that the scan isn't askew and to have negatives at the end of a strip flat you'd really need a Newton glass plate which I don't have.

 

Still, with some fiddling about I was able to get a decent scan for the first example above without any stripes for the first time. This seems to prove that the stripes are actually reflections from the film holder, so I have to either go the way "pop" described or get some Newton glass. Luckily, this is only a problem with a few negatives I have.

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The recipe with the black paper was meant to determine the cause of the problem only, not as a cure.

 

Just the other day I found out why the scanner is confused when scanning negatives (or positives, at that) without any holder.

 

The holder has a gap with a width of roughly half an inch. Apparently, the scanner needs this gap in order to calibrate itself during each scan. If you take care not to obstruct the area left free by that gap in the holder, i think your negatives will scan just fine when placed on the glass.

 

If it's a reasonable certainty that it's reflections off the border walls of the holder, you might try making them less glossy. A very fine sandpaper comes to mind, or some matte paint (without any organic solvents, to be on the safe side).

[nhabedi]

The recipe with the black paper was meant to determine the cause of the problem only, not as a cure.

 

Ah, OK. That was clearly a misunderstanding.

 

Just the other day I found out why the scanner is confused when scanning negatives (or positives, at that) without any holder.

 

The holder has a gap with a width of roughly half an inch. Apparently, the scanner needs this gap in order to calibrate itself during each scan. If you take care not to obstruct the area left free by that gap in the holder, i think your negatives will scan just fine when placed on the glass.

 

Interesting, I'll have to try that.

 

If it's a reasonable certainty that it's reflections off the border walls of the holder, you might try making them less glossy. A very fine sandpaper comes to mind, or some matte paint (without any organic solvents, to be on the safe side).

 

Yeah, I thought about something like this. Is there something like black anti-reflex paint?

 

Thanks again,

Edi.

[Doc Henry]

Eidi,

I always use the guide film delivered with the scanner and I never have this problem with the b&w or colour film.

Films are between the rails of the support (2 films x 6 poses) and flattened by another frame which comes to fix the whole !

Regards

Henry

[nhabedi]

Interesting, I'll have to try that.

 

Just did it. Yes, you're right that if you place the negative strip properly, you can scan it without a holder and without the area guide. The problem is, though, that you'll then get ghost images of the negative sprockets in your picture...

 

It seems the solution is to either build your own makeshift film holder (maybe some piece of black cardboard with a hole slightly bigger than a negative) or to modify the Epson film holder to make it less reflective.

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Is there something like black anti-reflex paint?

 

At a guess, I would look for that in a shop where they sell model train and aeroplane kits, or in a do-it-yourself shop. It stands to reason that non-reflecting black paint can be had there.

 

Others might have better ideas, though.

[nhabedi]

I always use the guide film delivered with the scanner and I never have this problem with the b&w or colour film.

Films are between the rails of the support (2 films x 6 poses) and flattened by another frame which comes to fix the whole !

 

You mean the holder, I suppose? I'm using it as well, see my description above.

 

Note that I also almost never have this problem. As I said, it happens in rare cases with dense negatives - maybe one frame in twenty films or so.