AlanJW Posted October 28, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I wrote (emailed) Leica US last week, seeking some explanation for the delays in M9s and indicating I had a project I wanted to start in late November. This is what I got today in response. The good news is the "biggest shipment" (presumably from Solms) this week. The bad news is still no way to predict delivery dates. ======================== Dear Mr. Weinschel, We have been delivering cameras, however, the number of customer pre-ordered units far exceeds that of the incoming products. The situation will hopefully improve soon. This week we are expecting the biggest shipment by far to come in. Unfortunately we are not able to help predict whether you will receive yours in time for the upcoming project. It is recommended that you keep in touch regularly with your dealer. ========================= Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Hi AlanJW, Take a look here M9 availability -- a ray of hope?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jager Posted October 28, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 28, 2009 That's very encouraging news! Thanks for sharing. It's also consistent with what one of the forum members posted two weeks ago - that last week would see a small shipment to the States of a dozen or so units; but that this week would see the first larger shipment of M9's since the 9/9 announcement. It's great to get confirmation that it is true. Hopefully we'll be hearing of those deliveries over the next couple of days. And hopefully other markets are likewise finally getting some decent shipments. Luck to all... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashwinrao1 Posted October 28, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 28, 2009 Oh gosh, do I hope so. I just put in a deposit to my local dealer to move up to # 2 on their wait list...if 2 make it up to the Pacific NW, then I'll be closer...or maybe have it in my hands in the next couple of weeks.... Here's to that ray of hope! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted October 28, 2009 Share #4 Posted October 28, 2009 Interesting, I just received a call from my dealer, that at the end of the week they expect a shipment. Of what or how many he did not say... just be ready. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozdavid Posted October 28, 2009 Share #5 Posted October 28, 2009 FWIW I was told today by the Australian distributor that Leica are producing about 35 a day and have orders for about 8000 around the world! If the information is correct, Leica has a magnificent hit on its hand but stock levels are going to be extremely tight for some time. Certainly, the shipments into OZ are small and, this time, it is not because the distributor failed to place sufficient orders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Sfeir Posted October 28, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 28, 2009 I heard from a Paris Leica dealer that large shipments will start soon, and that they expect to fulfill a substantial number of their pre-orders in November. It seems Leica was missing some part(s) and they were pre-aseembling cameras awaiting that part from their supplier. Dixit the dealer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
msk2193 Posted October 28, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) FWIW I was told today by the Australian distributor that Leica are producing about 35 a day and have orders for about 8000 around the world! If the information is correct, Leica has a magnificent hit on its hand but stock levels are going to be extremely tight for some time. Certainly, the shipments into OZ are small and, this time, it is not because the distributor failed to place sufficient orders. If this is correct, it will take a full year (taking into account weekends and holidays, etc.) to catch up to the current backlog of orders! Ouch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheewai_m6 Posted October 28, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 28, 2009 i just calculated (not difficult i know) that 8000 units at 35 units/day will take 229 days. some customers will be waiting for 8 months then. customers that have already ordered one. that's a bit disappointing. it'd be great if there was one big massive shipment ready to go, of say 900 units that leica kept quiet. i know it's not the case. but it'd be a nice surprise to the customers waiting. i intend to buy in a couple of years when i save up enough $$$. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMB Posted October 28, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 28, 2009 Leica created a huge hype in its campaign culminating in its NYC presentation on 9/9/9 and it said on 9/9/9 that the camera would be shipped and available in shops immediately, thus creating an expectation that most customers would get their camera within a few weeks/couple of months. Clearly, that’s not is happening as cameras are dibbling out of Solms at such an atrociously slow pace which could have been considered by Leica to be sufficient to meet demand only under the bleakest assumptions. Leica, however, remains totally silent as to what went wrong – or not as planned - and leaves not only their customers, but also their dealers, more or less in the dark as to when and at what pace deliveries will occur. As a result, there are all sorts of rumor, such as missing parts, 35 cameras a week (which I really hope is a joke), no gray cameras for several months, workers on short shift etc. I am not suggesting the Leica acted in bad faith when it said on 9/9/9 that the camera would ship immediately, but I am disappointed (and I think a few others as well) about its communication strategy thereafter. Things can go wrong, and if you tell your potential customers why deliveries are slow and when they will resume at full pace, they will understand; if you keep your head in the sand and let your customers in the dark, they will be unhappy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 28, 2009 Share #10 Posted October 28, 2009 GMB, 35 a day, not per week. You have to stay realistic here. It takes one full day to build an M9, so if the 35 number is correct, that means that they have 35 people assembling M9s. They have apparently recently hired a whole bunch of new technicians to help manufacture these, so maybe once they are trained, this production rate will double. A small company like Leica has a limited number of people to manufacture these things. In some ways, a huge demand is the worst that could happen to them, because they have no way of keeping up, truly. It is easy to say that they should do better, but the question is how? Should they market less? Should they not tell everyone that the camera is coming? Should they delay release of the camera to have more on hand when they start shipping? There are no good answers here. Releasing a press release saying that they can't keep up isn't going to help either; it would rather hurt. Leica has experimented with more open communications before, as anyone who has been here for a while can attest to. That backfired too, as the people who said "if they would just communicate more" found other things to complain about. There are way too many people around who get angry as soon as things aren't to their liking. Be patient, the nearly forgotten virtue. Make some photos with your existing equipment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMB Posted October 28, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 28, 2009 GMB, 35 a day, not per week. Sorry, my mistake. But 35 a week is still not a lot. GMB, 35 a day, not per week. You have to stay realistic here. It takes one full day to build an M9, so if the 35 number is correct, that means that they have 35 people assembling M9s. They have apparently recently hired a whole bunch of new technicians to help manufacture these, so maybe once they are trained, this production rate will double. A small company like Leica has a limited number of people to manufacture these things. In some ways, a huge demand is the worst that could happen to them, because they have no way of keeping up, truly. It is easy to say that they should do better, but the question is how? Should they market less? Should they not tell everyone that the camera is coming? Should they delay release of the camera to have more on hand when they start shipping? There are no good answers here. Releasing a press release saying that they can't keep up isn't going to help either; it would rather hurt. Leica has experimented with more open communications before, as anyone who has been here for a while can attest to. That backfired too, as the people who said "if they would just communicate more" found other things to complain about. I accept all of that -- well almost all. However, the issue is that Leica created the expectation on 9/9/9 of fast delivery and than did not meet that expectation. And most dealers apparently are clueless as to when they will receive any cameras, and then cameras turn up at dealers who have no preorders etc. There also is the story of the gray model for which apparently shipping stopped and will only be resumed in a couple of months. Not sure whether it is correct, but as I put myself in line for a gray one I would like to know so that I can decide whether to switch to black or not. There are way too many people around who get angry as soon as things aren't to their liking. Be patient, the nearly forgotten virtue. Make some photos with your existing equipment. Don’t get me wrong, I am not angry, just a bit frustrated, because I have no idea when I will get permission to spend my money. There is a German saying, which you certainly know: “Der Kunde ist der König.” (The customer is the King). Well, I guess customer monarchy, like so many other monarchies, has been abolished as well. Instead, we have to be grateful that someone finally decides to take our money. Strange new world. So I continue to shoot my M8 and may decide to skip the M9 and instead preorder a M10 now. PS: I am in the service business and it can happen that I am late on my deliverables for a variety of reasons. However, I always give my clients a heads-up, and normally they are very understanding. If I would not communicate with them in that manner, I would most likely have no more clients. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted October 28, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 28, 2009 PS: I am in the service business and it can happen that I am late on my deliverables for a variety of reasons. However, I always give my clients a heads-up, and normally they are very understanding. If I would not communicate with them in that manner, I would most likely have no more clients. And you are perfectly right. The most important is not the delay/wait in itself, it is the lack of information. When you have put down a 20% deposit for two months, I guess the minimum courtesy from Leica would be to inform dealers & customers on the situation and give updates on most probable delivery dates. It kind of feels like if I ordered a Trabant and will get it "at some point in the next 10 years", not very customer orientated IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 28, 2009 Share #13 Posted October 28, 2009 Leica created the expectation on 9/9/9 of fast delivery and than did not meet that expectation. Well, I disagree. On 9/9/9 they announced the camera. The rest is taking place in people's minds. Leica is clearly making and shipping the cameras as fast as they can, but they are not immune to huge demand. It is the old problem of small companies: if you have no customers, you die. If you have too many customers, they get angry, and you die. If you scale up to meet demand, then you die when the demand dies down. There is a German saying, which you certainly know: “Der Kunde ist der König.” (The customer is the King). Well, I guess customer monarchy, like so many other monarchies, has been abolished as well. Instead, we have to be grateful that someone finally decides to take our money. Strange new world. Come on, you know that you are inventing things here. Who told you that you have to be grateful to be allowed to spend your money? It is very simple: there is a waiting list, when you are at the top, you get the next camera. Period. It is impossible to say when that is, because no one knows how many people are on how many lists. Every dealer doesn't write to Leica every day and say how many people are waiting, and who. Without this information, Leica couldn't possibly know when you will get your camera. The dealers have lists of a certain length, and choose how many cameras to order. A dealer with 100 people on their list won't order 100 cameras, because they know that not all 100 will buy. Maybe they order 15, and so to Leica it looks like 15 people are waiting. All Leica can do is tell people how many cameras they can make per day, as they have. PS: I am in the service business and it can happen that I am late on my deliverables for a variety of reasons. However, I always give my clients a heads-up, and normally they are very understanding. If I would not communicate with them in that manner, I would most likely have no more clients. Like I mentioned in my previous post, in the M8 days there were problems with deliveries and of course the IR problem, and so on, but there was little communication, and people were grumbling like you are. At some point, Leica made a concerted effort to communicate more directly, and the grumbling turned to a roar, and the criticism got more targeted and loud. They learned the lesson. People will always grumble, but grumbling is better than the alternative. The point is that people aren't happy until they are happy, and in this case, they won't be happy, no matter what Leica does, until they have their M9 in their hands. So Leica does what makes most sense, they concentrate on making more cameras. It is really simple in the end: you order your camera and wait for it. While you are waiting, you have two choices: complain or be patient. Nothing changes because of either choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted October 28, 2009 Share #14 Posted October 28, 2009 It is really simple in the end: you order your camera and wait for it. While you are waiting, you have two choices: complain or be patient. Nothing changes because of either choice. You forgot a choice : you cancel your order. You don't realize how Leica is lucky to be in such a niche market (digital rangefinder). That kind of behavior in a market with less product differentiation and the third choice would obviously matter a lot more. Leica knows very few customers will cancel because of the wait. There is no alternative. But it is considered as an unreliable supplier. In the long term, everything impacts. As it is often said "Retail is detail". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 28, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 28, 2009 However, the issue is that Leica created the expectation on 9/9/9 of fast delivery and than did not meet that expectation. That's not quite true. Leica said that the M9 would be available on or after 9/9. That is true. Many people who had pre-ordered or were just lucky, bought within a few days. What Leica did NOT say was that there would be sufficient M9s in stock, worldwide, to satisfy the demand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidomo Posted October 28, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 28, 2009 You don't realize how Leica is lucky to be in such a niche market (digital rangefinder). Did they just happen to be in that niche market? They created it and you ought to be happy it still exists and got carried into digital, and now even into FF digital. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeelite Posted October 28, 2009 Share #17 Posted October 28, 2009 Leica created a huge hype in its campaign culminating in its NYC presentation on 9/9/9 and it said on 9/9/9 that the camera would be shipped and available in shops immediately, thus creating an expectation that most customers would get their camera within a few weeks/couple of months. Clearly, that’s not is happening as cameras are dibbling out of Solms at such an atrociously slow pace which could have been considered by Leica to be sufficient to meet demand only under the bleakest assumptions. Leica, however, remains totally silent as to what went wrong – or not as planned - and leaves not only their customers, but also their dealers, more or less in the dark as to when and at what pace deliveries will occur. As a result, there are all sorts of rumor, such as missing parts, 35 cameras a week (which I really hope is a joke), no gray cameras for several months, workers on short shift etc. I am not suggesting the Leica acted in bad faith when it said on 9/9/9 that the camera would ship immediately, but I am disappointed (and I think a few others as well) about its communication strategy thereafter. Things can go wrong, and if you tell your potential customers why deliveries are slow and when they will resume at full pace, they will understand; if you keep your head in the sand and let your customers in the dark, they will be unhappy. My local Leica dealer in Korea has confirmed this: he said that by the end of October we get a small shipment, but by sometime mid-November he will get a large shipment. Also, he mentioned that there will be no steel grays shipping this month, but there will be grays in the November shipment. I ordered mine gray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted October 28, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 28, 2009 Did they just happen to be in that niche market? They created it and you ought to be happy it still exists and got carried into digital, and now even into FF digital. Ok then, is that better for your "Thank you so much Leica for letting me be your customer and have to wait only a few months for your revolutionary products. I love not knowing when I will get my camera, so this way I can learn that patience is a virtue. Please raise your price as €5'500 is really too low for all the value and customer service you provide" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 28, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 28, 2009 You forgot a choice : you cancel your order. Sure, your choice. But it is considered as an unreliable supplier. Not at all. Leica is slow, but not unreliable. Anyone with a reasonable amount of patience will have no reason to be dissatisfied. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 28, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 28, 2009 The good news is that by taking the company 96% private, Dr. Kaufmann has gotten rid of shareholders yammering and thinking they run the company. Now if he could just do something about customers yammering and thinking they run the company.... At their peak (1959) with factories running in both Wetzlar and Midland, Ontario, Leica produced about 30,000 cameras a year Peak M4 production was about 18,000 a year (1968) M6 (Solms) ran about 12,000 a year = 1,000 a month = 35 per calendar day (50 per work day). M8 and M9 seem to be in the same ballpark, once the introductory ramp-up is over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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