Upgrade Timing

[marknorton]

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Been musing, as I do, about how they will be organising the upgrade and who will do it. Lots of number assumptions of course, so don't shoot me if I'm way off!

 

What they absolutely cannot afford is to have upgraded cameras come back less than 100% perfect. Just imagine: "Leica had two chances to get my camera right and they failed". So, even if the upgrade itself is relatively simple - let's say 1 hour - I feel sure they will want to put every fixed camera back through the same QA process that new cameras go through.

 

I feel sure that QA process will be the bottleneck. There are only so many people who can do it - it's not the sort of job you put the janitor on - and at (let's say) 2 hours per camera, that will put a limit on the number of cameras they can fix a week.

 

Figure 1500 out there, 500 never shipped or pulled back, 1000 in varying states of build. Their initial focus must surely be on getting those 500 fixed and out and those 1000 built and out and although their registration web-site opens on 6 December, with the Christmas and New Year holiday, it's possible the first customer cameras may not go back until 2 January. Their reasonable logic might be: "if you send the camera in before Christmas, we don't want you to be disappointed if, for some reason, it doesn't get back to you by then".

 

If there are 1500 to be fixed, even QA'ing 50 a day might require 15 people in addition to those working on new cameras, so I'd expect they could not fix them even at that rate. Bottom line I think is that this process is going to stretch out over several weeks. Even 3 months would be an ambitious target, IMHO.

[Riley]

yes as a worker generally offers less than 2,000 hrs of work per year

and only a handfull of people will be able to commit to this task

although other non expert people can be seconded for the logistics chain

 

one of the interesting things the germans have apparently worked out is the scheduling of this rework. the idea of registering for a time allows leica some proximity to make adjustments between now and the response to your registration. this also ensures, that a client is without his/her camera for the shortest possible time. and in the gap between, others can be trained to facilitate the cleanroom work. and fine tuning of some of the issues can be explored.

 

this whole episode has been a technical adventure of so many new facets quite unheard of for leica before. i would be facinated to learn more of the scheduling process.

 

Riley

[adan]

Reasonable assessment, so far as I know.

 

Unless Leica puts a deadline on returning cameras for the fix, I'm planning to send mine in so as to be without it during February (a nice cold nasty month that I can work around). At least that's the "appointment" I'll ask for.

 

There are things I want to shoot between now and Feb. 1 (for which I can work around the bugs) - and would like to have it back for, say, St. Patrick's Day. By which time the IR filters should have landed, as well.

[erl]

I could write a whole diatribe on this, but I won't. Leica have to 'put it right' and I believe they will. there are, IMHO, two categories to be satisfied..

 

1. Amateurs/enthusiasts.

2. Professionals.

 

Unapologetically, as a Pro, I believe 'we' need preference, despite the cries in another thread, by an amateur, that he paid the same money that I did and therefore is entitled to the same priority. Without labouring the point, I claim that I paid the same money that he did but in addition, my livelyhood depends on it. Make what you will of that.

 

Practically speaking, I can't see the desirable prospect of 'loaner' cameras while our own M8's are in for 'fix' being implemented. There just won't be enough units available. Besides, the loaners will then be unsaleable as new which would be a serious problem for Leica. That is what we should expect, but I can't see it being a reality. This a real 'downside' of using Leica as a Pro. I have been lucky in the past because I habe been given loan gear while mine has been in for service, but I think the M8 is too new for that to be implemented. I live faint hope.

 

Cheers,

Erl

[rosuna]

Leica should replace the actual cameras by new cameras.

Then, they could repair the existen cameras and sell then as refurbished cameras, at special prices.

Customers would be happy, Leica wouldn't loss money.

All this process of repair (they call it "upgrade") will be irritating. Imagine I am in the queue and Leica give me May of 2007 as a date... Other people will be working with perfect cameras from the start.

[erl]

Leica should replace the actual cameras by new cameras.

Then, they could repair the existen cameras and sell then as refurbished cameras, at special prices.

Customers would be happy, Leica wouldn't loss money.

All this process of repair (they call it "upgrade") will be irritating. Imagine I am in the queue and Leica give me May of 2007 as a date... Other people will be working with perfect cameras from the start.

 

Yes, I would be happy with a new camera, but I can't see it happening in reality. As for 'May 2007', From where did you get that date? Not a reality, I suggest.

[marknorton]

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Erl, I could easily see it stretching 3 months as I said in my post.1500 cameras, 3 man-hours per camera, 4500 man hours, 128 man-weeks, 10 people, 12 weeks. And (another estimate) €300 per camera, €600k plus the filters for each camera.

 

I agree with Ruben that it will be seriously annoying for people at the end of the list to be waiting that long, in spite of Leica's insistance the cameras are working. I originally assumed the lens discount was to be some sort of compensation but perhaps the thought of all those discounted T-Es and Noctis walking out the door caused a change of heart.

 

"Yes, we stopped making the 75mm Summilux, thought we had enough in stock to last us but ended giving them all away at a 30% discount"....

[osera]

I repeat myself (sorry) when I say that the camera is working so well for what I need and want it for right now, so I'm not going to be in a hurry to be the first in line for the upgrade. Possibly because of that, if a pro or I suppose anyone else wants or needs some sort of priority, it doesn't bother me at all. This is different, I realize, than wanting a "hot swap."

 

However, I think that there should be some differentiation between:

1- those willing to keep their camera and deal with the upgrade process and,

2- those who simply return their camera in order to buy a new camera with the banding/ghosting correction already built in.

 

Something like a lens discount as incentive for those who send in for the upgrade.

 

BTW, do we know that the lens discount is off the table? I'm hearing conflicting info through some dealers even after the Leica general announcement.

[waterlenz]

Been musing, as I do, about how they will be organising the upgrade and who will do it. Lots of number assumptions of course, so don't shoot me if I'm way off!

 

What they absolutely cannot afford is to have upgraded cameras come back less than 100% perfect. Just imagine: "Leica had two chances to get my camera right and they failed". So, even if the upgrade itself is relatively simple - let's say 1 hour - I feel sure they will want to put every fixed camera back through the same QA process that new cameras go through.

 

I feel sure that QA process will be the bottleneck. There are only so many people who can do it - it's not the sort of job you put the janitor on - and at (let's say) 2 hours per camera, that will put a limit on the number of cameras they can fix a week.

 

Figure 1500 out there, 500 never shipped or pulled back, 1000 in varying states of build. Their initial focus must surely be on getting those 500 fixed and out and those 1000 built and out and although their registration web-site opens on 6 December, with the Christmas and New Year holiday, it's possible the first customer cameras may not go back until 2 January. Their reasonable logic might be: "if you send the camera in before Christmas, we don't want you to be disappointed if, for some reason, it doesn't get back to you by then".

 

If there are 1500 to be fixed, even QA'ing 50 a day might require 15 people in addition to those working on new cameras, so I'd expect they could not fix them even at that rate. Bottom line I think is that this process is going to stretch out over several weeks. Even 3 months would be an ambitious target, IMHO.

 

 

'My' M8 was not delivered by Thanksgiving as I was told by my dealer. I presume it was one of those held back at Solms. I expect it will be among the first to be updated since it is in hand over there. No logistics getting the camera to Leica as they still have it. I think there are quite a few in my position - I gather many pre-ordered M8s have yet to be delivered. I would hope these would also be among the first to be upgraded and into buyers' hands. How many did they hold on to is anyone's guess. I have one 486 filter in 62mm and a set of set-up adapters for my M lenses so I am good to go! Leica, please send my M8!!

Tom