SF20 Flash and the R8/R9

[leicamann]

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Anyone out there have any experience using this combo.

Right now, I find the R8 manual totally confusing, the SF20 manual no better, and very few answers on the net.

 

I simply want to be able to have the R8 to be able to control the "flash intensity" with the TTL metering.

 

Right now all it does is blast at 100%, producing junk, in other words I have absolutely no control over the flash or know any means how to?

 

Your help would be appreciated...

 

Regards, JRM

[rick_dykstra]

The SF20 works well with R8 (& R9 I assume).

 

For TTL control of flash dosage, simply switch the flash to TTL and then use any camera program mode other than F. M, P and T work best. M best of all.

 

If you want to use F mode (highly recommended) switch the flash to manual and adjust power with the + & - buttons. Also adjust the aperture ring if desired to get the flash balance you desire.

 

Please let me know how you go.

[rick_dykstra]

Also, can you tell what settings you were trying? If aperture priority that could be part of the problem.

 

In A mode with flash switched on the R8 defaults to f5.6 and 1/250th. This might not be sufficient for a nicely balanced background and might overdose the subject.

 

And, note that TTL is not reliable with a DMR. The sensor glass doesn't reflect light like film and the TTL flash sensor doesn't get a good reading. Use F mode instead. It's perfect, everytime.

[leicamann]

Thanks Rick..let me give you what I am doing.

 

I am indoors, very poor light, can hardly focus the light is so poor.

 

With this R8 I want to use:

 

1) Fuji T64 Film

2) F5.6

3) want to control the flash ...so it becomes "fill flash" not "flash blast"

 

 

So far from reading thisis what I know

 

Set :

 

1) Camera to P mode

2) set speed dial to P... which is 30

3) set SF20 to TTL

4) THEY SAY to set the apeture to above F 11????

 

The lens I am using is the R 90 F2.8 Elmarit, 3 CAM, no ROM contacts.

 

5) in P mode the shutter speed remains at 1/250.....have no control over shutter speed.

If I want to use M mode....how do know if the flash is overexposing or not until I get the film back, how do you know????

Remember I am using film

 

Thanks,JRM

[rick_dykstra]

Ah, P mode indoors. It will recognise that there is little ambient light and will set for a flash dominant picture. The flash dose will be controlled by TTL (assuming you have the flash set toTTL). Inthis setting and with an SF20 (which doesn't have a swivelling head) the pics will look like they were flash lit. But good exposures can stillbe had.

 

Switch to either M or F mode and look at the distance readout on the flash. This is pretty reliable. For indoor shooting you'll need full flash. For out door you can try to dial back to a -ve flash compensation, such as -1 for strongly backlit subjects or -1 2/3 or further for side lit shots where shadows need some brightening up.

 

Here's a suggestion. Stick an expired (or sacrificed) film in the camera so the TTL sensor gets good reflections off the film. In M mode play around with different aperture settings and watch outside the viewfinder to see the flash dosage varying. This will give you confidence that the camera's TTL system is working. Then, try F mode and fiddle with the flash power to get good exposure. Use some neutral material to get flash reflections from, using only the circular metering mark on the viewfinder for taking readings.

 

Re P mode, it's useful when shooting quickly, indoors and out, with light varying all over the place. But M and F are the modes to use for indoor settings (and some outdoor settings) where you want more control.

 

Tell and ask more. . Happy to help.

[rick_dykstra]

I read your settings again.

 

If you're looking for just a little flash fill in dim indoor conditions you'll need to use M or F and dial the flash power right down. It might be necessary to put a filter in front of the flash lamp. You might find the only solution is to try a simple off camera flash shoe so you can aim the flash away, to bounce off a wall.

 

Again, play around with the camera's built in flash meter with F mode. Then you'll see the effect the flash is having vs ambient readings.

[rick_dykstra]

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4) THEY SAY to set the apeture to above F 11????

 

The lens I am using is the R 90 F2.8 Elmarit, 3 CAM, no ROM contacts.

 

In P and T modes the camera chooses the appropriate aperture to match a shutter speed, chosen by the photographer in T and influenced by the photographer in P. So that the camera has the full range of apertures to choose from it needs to be set to the smallest one - or the highest f number. Users can also choose the smallest aperture to be used by T or P by setting the aperture ring accordingly, say at f8 or 11.

 

Lack of ROM has no effect on any of this, though, with auto zooming flashes it does help set the reflector for the lens field of view.

[leicamann]

In P and T modes the camera chooses the appropriate aperture to match a shutter speed, chosen by the photographer in T and influenced by the photographer in P. So that the camera has the full range of apertures to choose from it needs to be set to the smallest one - or the highest f number. Users can also choose the smallest aperture to be used by T or P by setting the aperture ring accordingly, say at f8 or 11.

 

Lack of ROM has no effect on any of this, though, with auto zooming flashes it does help set the reflector for the lens field of view.

 

Wheww..you got me there..this is all VERY confusing?

 

 

 

Your saying that if ...say I make an "apeture selection in T mode..then switch it to P mode.....each mode "talks" to each other?

 

Quite frankly I don't get it..but I tell you what I did tonight.

 

Here is the whole setup.

 

3 Soft boxes..for ambient light.

 

R8 + R90mm F2.8 Elmarit, Kodak T64 film plus the SF20 flash unit.

 

Now the settings.

 

Dial at P mode

Speed Dial at :30..P

Shutter speed remains fixed at 1/250...

F 5.6

SF20 is set at TTL, it tells me 2.8 M..so I measure 2.8 M and set my tripod there...so 2.8 M away from the subject.

 

Thats it.. I have absolutley no way of knowing whether I blew $30.00 and all the slides will be either black or totally blown..I have absolutely no way of knowing,..none.

I am trusting that the little diode in the camera was doing the adjustments with the flash unit.

We'll know in 3 days

Thanks again Rick

 

Cheers, JRM

[leicamann]

Rick..how in the blazes does the "camera choose the appropriate apeture"?

 

I thought the apeture settings are on the lens, therefore ..manual..... therefore how does a manual camera "choose the apeture"..unless it was a Canon or a Nikon???

 

By what mechanism or process are the apeture blades "moved" by the camera????

 

 

 

Cheers, JRM

[salvi]

JRM

 

For fil flash you need to set the R8 to T - Mode.

Set the SF20 to TTL

Reduce the power of the SF20 by -1 2/3 EV

 

You can also try M - Mode.

For inside shooting set the R8 to 1/30s

Choose the aperture ... lets say 4 or 5,6

Set the SF20 to TTL

Reduce the power of the SF20 by -1 2/3 EV

 

 

cheers

 

Salvatore

[salvi]

JRM

 

For to adjust the flash power for fil flash you need first to install the SF20 on the R8.

Switch the R8 to M , A or T mode.

Turn the power on of the SF20 and set it to TTL.

 

Press the +-/P button and reduce the value by pressing the - button to -1 2/3 EV.

 

So now is everithing ready for shooting....Aperture and shutter speed is up to you.

 

cheers

 

Salvatore

[rick_dykstra]

Rick..how in the blazes does the "camera choose the appropriate apeture"?

 

I thought the apeture settings are on the lens, therefore ..manual..... therefore how does a manual camera "choose the apeture"..unless it was a Canon or a Nikon???

 

By what mechanism or process are the apeture blades "moved" by the camera????

 

 

 

Cheers, JRM

 

I remember wondering about the same thing.

 

A, T and P are all modes where the camera will try to make a balanced exposure, according to what the light meter is detecting and the film speed setting. With A mode the user chooses the aperture and the camera chooses an appropriate shutter speed. With T the user sets the desired shutter speed and the camera chooses an appropriate aperture. With P, both shutter and aperture vary but the user can influence the shutter speed by biasing the dial either aide of 30.

 

Now let's think about T and P. There is a mechanical linkage inside the camera's bayonet that moves during the exposure by a certain amount according to how much the len's aperture blades need to close. This mechanical linkage between camera and lens causes the aperture blades to close down for the shot. If the lens aperture ring is dialled all the way to 16 or 22 then the full range of aperture settings will be available for the camera to choose from. It might choose f4 if that's what is needed for a good exposure, in dim conditions.

 

Let me know if this explanation hasn't worked. A fire alarm has cut me short.

[leicamann]

Thanks Rick and Salvi... I think I've got it now.. I understand.. like I said , first batch has been sent out and we'll see on Wednesday.....success or failiure:confused:

 

Then I'll go from there, its just that I have a big project coming up this Sunday and I want to work out all the variables and get the lighting issues "ironed out".

 

Thank you all for your lengthly replies, as there are very few posts in the archives about the SF20 /SF24 and the R8/9 or M6TTL.

 

Cheers, JRM

[rick_dykstra]

... I have a big project coming up this Sunday and I want to work out all the variables and get the lighting issues "ironed out".

 

Given the big project looming, let me speak in praise of F mode once again. If the project is something like you've been practicing for, it could be the answer. F mode is the same as M (manual), but with a built-in flash meter working for you as well. If the shots you'll be taking are set-pieces, such as a parade of subjects coming past and posing in the same setting, then this is the way to go. You will know from your test shots that the manual flash set up is providing exposures (provided you've measured the flash against a neutral test medium).

 

If the job is more like an event where you'll be roving around in somewhat dim but consistent indoor lighting, taking groups shots as they present and relying on the SF20 for flash illumination, then a good option would be to use M mode with your preferred aperture (f4 or f5.6 would be good choices) and a shutter speed such as 1/60th, with the flash set to TTL.

 

But if the event will see you moving through settings where the light is all over the place and where you wont have time to pose or organise people, nor perhaps to check manual settings before shooting, then a program mode like P or T would be good. For these modes (as mentioned in previous posts) set the aperture ring to the highest number, switch the flash to TTL and blaze away.

 

Have a play around with P mode if you can. As you've already figured out, set it to P30 on the shutter dial and the aperture ring to the highest number. Put the light meter on the middle setting (the matrix or multi field setting). Put the flash on and walk around in distinctly different light. Look at what's going on with the light meter, aperture, shutter and the flash compensation indicators in the viewfinder. You'll see them vary up and down according to the brightness of the scene. Full flash and f5.6 will be selected in dim conditions, fill flash (with negative flash compensation) in medium light, no flash and a smaller aperture in very bright conditions. You can dial in some manual exposure compensation as needed for light or dark colours.

 

If it was me, I'd not use A (aperture priority) mode with flash. 'A' mode selects f5.6 and 1/250th as fixed settings and then applies flash, controlled via TTL if that's how the flash is set. It's not a flexible mode and tends to produce pics with dark backgrounds and overly flash lit subjects in anything other than bright ambient conditions.

 

Me? I'd use M manual mode as much as I could manage. For indoors I'd set the shutter as slow as subject movement would allow - even 1/15th or longer, but probably 1/30th for most shooting. I'd open the aperture right up (or as much as focussing accuracy allows) to let as much ambient light in, along with that long shutter opening. Then the flash would light up the main subject - controlled by TTL or Auto.

 

But remember, if it's really quite dim and you're using anything other than really fast film, the shots are gonna look flash dominant and there's not much to be done about it - other than bringing along a nice low, white ceiling and a tilt head flash with secondary forward firing strobe.

[leicamann]

Thanks Rick... I think I am going to stick with P mode and TTL for now.

 

Now what I will do, is if the slides turn out any/somewhat decent..then I will scan and post them here. We can discuss and fine tune the pros and cons. We'll keep this a running thread so that people can actually see how we problem solve and the different examples.

 

Now if I am going to use a fast film , it would be the Fuji 400S or the 800S with a tungsten filter, this again will force me to use TTL. Well have to stick with the 50mm Summicron or 90mm Elmarit..wish I had the 80 lux:rolleyes:.

 

So I think I will split the project between the FujiT64 and the 400S ands 800S...see which one comes out the winner.

 

Thanks again..tomorrow afternoon is the day of truth..we'll see.

 

Cheers, JRM

[leicamann]

Good news and then some bad news and then some really, really bad news.

 

First of all the really good news, when in P mode, since the camera will only fire at 1/250 all shots where the flash fired are under- exposed

 

Secondly all shots when the flash did not fire are perfect, in this case 1/4 sec at F5.6

 

Thirdly while using a roll of film that was not quite rolled across the exposure plane on the back, the film got caught on the inside shutter, which is now stuck and torn...so no more R8 for about 6 weeks and the possibility of being $500.00 poorer.

 

 

Conclusion..P mode..with flash at TTL, speed dial at P30, F stop cranked all the way...DOES NOT WORK..and of course not...... even in guesssing as from the proper shutter speed without flash was 1/4 sec..then with flash we are talking about an exposure of 1/15 sec max.

 

So anyhow , project will have to be done with my trustly Leicaflex SL2 for now and when I get this poor R8 fixed we can get back to talking about solving this issue.

 

Regards, JRM

[rick_dykstra]

Firstly, that's rotten news about the shutter. Good luck with the repair.

 

The ambient light shots might have arisen from the flash not recycling in time for your next press of the shutter. With the flash out of action, P mode gave you a correct ambient exposure. They can look really nice.

 

A thought about the underexposed flash shots. The underexposure would likely not have resulted from the 1/250th shutter speed. The duration of a flash from a small unit like an SF20 is about 1/10,000th, ie, a small fraction of the time the shutter was open. As such, the shutter speed has no effect upon how much flash light hits the film. It's completely open when the flash fires and the light gets in. The aperture does regulate how much reflected flash light hits the film. It was probably f5.6 and that may have limited the effect of the flash.

 

Controlling these variables is the challenge. It's why I use M mode and ambient light to the extent possible. And if flash is needed, I'll still use M, with TTL control for the flash (if I haven't already switched to F, with the flash under manual control as well).

[zonevt]

Thanks Rick..let me give you what I am doing.

 

I am indoors, very poor light, can hardly focus the light is so poor.

 

With this R8 I want to use:

 

1) Fuji T64 Film

2) F5.6

3) want to control the flash ...so it becomes "fill flash" not "flash blast"

 

 

So far from reading thisis what I know

 

Set :

 

1) Camera to P mode

2) set speed dial to P... which is 30

3) set SF20 to TTL

4) THEY SAY to set the apeture to above F 11????

 

The lens I am using is the R 90 F2.8 Elmarit, 3 CAM, no ROM contacts.

 

5) in P mode the shutter speed remains at 1/250.....have no control over shutter speed.

If I want to use M mode....how do know if the flash is overexposing or not until I get the film back, how do you know????

Remember I am using film

 

Thanks,JRM

 

Why would you want to use T64 (tungsten) balanced film at 3200K with fill flash that is daylight balanced around 5000K? This fil is produced to shoot with tungsten balanced light ....unless you want altered color for some reason you would have to use blue correction filter on your flash. If you are photographing still subjects use a tripod with the 64T film and long exposures. This film is made to handle long exposure times using tungsten hot lights.

[leicamann]

Why would you want to use T64 (tungsten) balanced film at 3200K with fill flash that is daylight balanced around 5000K? This fil is produced to shoot with tungsten balanced light ....unless you want altered color for some reason you would have to use blue correction filter on your flash. If you are photographing still subjects use a tripod with the 64T film and long exposures. This film is made to handle long exposure times using tungsten hot lights.

 

 

The flash is not for any color correction. Its simply another source of light.

 

The flash as you said is "daylight balanced" and then ruins the shots.

 

So that didn't work. I didn't think about that at the time, now that my R8 is ruined for the time being I have "lots of time" to work out a proper lighting setup

 

I am using tungsten hot lights with umbrella reflectors.

 

The problem is that my subjects.."blink"..anyhow I will try without flash using my SL 2 and the Fuji T64..and get back to you.

 

Cheers, JRM

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[leicamann]

Firstly, that's rotten news about the shutter. Good luck with the repair.

 

The ambient light shots might have arisen from the flash not recycling in time for your next press of the shutter. With the flash out of action, P mode gave you a correct ambient exposure. They can look really nice.

 

A thought about the underexposed flash shots. The underexposure would likely not have resulted from the 1/250th shutter speed. The duration of a flash from a small unit like an SF20 is about 1/10,000th, ie, a small fraction of the time the shutter was open. As such, the shutter speed has no effect upon how much flash light hits the film. It's completely open when the flash fires and the light gets in. The aperture does regulate how much reflected flash light hits the film. It was probably f5.6 and that may have limited the effect of the flash.

 

Controlling these variables is the challenge. It's why I use M mode and ambient light to the extent possible. And if flash is needed, I'll still use M, with TTL control for the flash (if I haven't already switched to F, with the flash under manual control as well).

 

 

Here is my deduction and here is what I am going to do.

I have 4 days left to come up with a "master plan"

 

1) more hot lights

2) Fuji S400 and S800 using the flash( daylight...with daylight)

3) One session with ambient light.... Fuji T64 , F5.6.... shutter speed at 1/8th sec..tripod

4) when the R8 comes back.... I will use flash in manual mode, calculating th exposure distance( amount of light needed to get proper "fill flash")..

 

The saga continues:)

Thanks again.

 

Cheers,JRM