rchrd Posted February 2, 2015 Share #1 Posted February 2, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Has anybody else's Lightroom experience sucked with the Leica X 113? I have noticed that DNG files from my Leica X 113 are overexposed when uploading them into Lightroom. I suppose Lightroom automatically does it's own adjustments for each camera, but their profile settings for the Leica X 113 files are absolutely horrible. I have to push the highlights and Whites at least halfway down each time, and I know I am not exposing the shots (JPEGs come out fine). But here is the real problem for me: I have also noticed that the DNG files have a different proportion to them than the JPEG. Obviously DNGs are supposed to be raw info and Lightroom interprets that data, but I can't understand why Lightroom is doing something akin to lens profile correction with the DNG when it uploads them. Is there a way to turn off Lightroom's custom camera profiles, and just get the DNG file as it originally is? You see, I love the crisp sharpness and detail you get in JPEG format, and also the colors you get from Leica's JPEGS. But I also love the dynamic range you get with raw for more extreme lighting situations. So my ideal workflow would be to layer the two so I can get the dynamic range of DNG, and slowly add in the crisp sharpness and color you get from Leica JPEGs. However, I cannot do this seeing that Lightroom interprets the DNGs with proportion corrections, so the images don't layer together perfectly. So I am stuck with Leica's beautiful JPEGs, but also limited dynamic range and recovery, or Adobe's overexposed and half put together interpretation...Is there any way to get the raw file without any camera profile corrections being applied? Also I have an Adobe Creative Cloud account, so my Lightroom is fully updated. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Hi rchrd, Take a look here Leica X type 113 and Lightroom. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Yoki Posted February 2, 2015 Share #2 Posted February 2, 2015 Yes, I noticed that too.. the LR tends to over-expose the DNG's and applied lens correction on it. Unfortunately, I have no idea on how to turn the profile off. I'm okay with the lens correction, as it save me time, and I have no plan to layered it with it's jpeg's. And for the over-exposed file; I deliberately under-exposed my shot on the field - it works fine. It is interesting knowing that you get a beautiful jpeg's from your X in LR, as I got a flat, dull, and desaturated colors. I always end-up deleting all the jpeg's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchrd Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share #3 Posted February 2, 2015 Yoki, you are right, I also find desaturated colors in many of my photos, but you'll get nice popping colors in outdoor shots of nature like leaves, the sky, or urban objects like signs. Sometimes it records color that doesn't even show up in the DNGs. Like red leaves will have much more red in the highlights and midtones than the DNG file, and no matter how much I try, I wouldn't be able to get it to show up on the DNG, because it is not just a matter of saturation, but it recording the color in the first place. In other words, the JPEGS seem like I have a circular polarizer for colors, so I get the full range of color instead of them being washed out like in the DNG. The JPEGs in my experience are much sharper too. So yeah, ideally I would love to layer and blend back in some of that Leica color and sharpness into the DNG. But seeing that Lightroom is messing with the proportions of the DNG file, that's impossible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoki Posted February 3, 2015 Share #4 Posted February 3, 2015 Hi Richard.., here are the images in both raw and jpg, out of camera: L1002128-R by Yoki P. Soufyan, on Flickr L1002128 by Yoki P. Soufyan, on Flickr As for the over-exposed issue; I also noticed that the AF somewhat play a role on that, as when I use MF; the issue is not exist. Perhaps, MF is a way to go for X? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted February 3, 2015 Share #5 Posted February 3, 2015 I help people with lightroom and give workshops.... maybe pm me? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted February 3, 2015 Share #6 Posted February 3, 2015 Has anybody else's Lightroom experience sucked with the Leica X 113? I have noticed that DNG files from my Leica X 113 are overexposed when uploading them into Lightroom. I suppose Lightroom automatically does it's own adjustments for each camera, but their profile settings for the Leica X 113 files are absolutely horrible. I have to push the highlights and Whites at least halfway down each time, and I know I am not exposing the shots (JPEGs come out fine). But here is the real problem for me: I have also noticed that the DNG files have a different proportion to them than the JPEG. Obviously DNGs are supposed to be raw info and Lightroom interprets that data, but I can't understand why Lightroom is doing something akin to lens profile correction with the DNG when it uploads them. Is there a way to turn off Lightroom's custom camera profiles, and just get the DNG file as it originally is? You see, I love the crisp sharpness and detail you get in JPEG format, and also the colors you get from Leica's JPEGS. But I also love the dynamic range you get with raw for more extreme lighting situations. So my ideal workflow would be to layer the two so I can get the dynamic range of DNG, and slowly add in the crisp sharpness and color you get from Leica JPEGs. However, I cannot do this seeing that Lightroom interprets the DNGs with proportion corrections, so the images don't layer together perfectly. So I am stuck with Leica's beautiful JPEGs, but also limited dynamic range and recovery, or Adobe's overexposed and half put together interpretation...Is there any way to get the raw file without any camera profile corrections being applied? Also I have an Adobe Creative Cloud account, so my Lightroom is fully updated. Lightroom will process the data you capture and present to it. Look at the histogram of jpeg in camera and in LR. My guess is that you are over-exposing in camera and seeing the in-camera processed jpeg which looks good but conceals the exposure error. LR can make corrections at your direction. Try taking an evenly illuminated subject and report on perceived exposure accuracy. Try manual exposure control rather than manual focusing. Often the exposure sampling point desired is not read if AF is locked elsewhere. I doubt your problem is exclusive to the Leica X which I do not have. I apply the techniques to my X1 and X Vario with success. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchrd Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share #7 Posted February 3, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yoki, thanks for the picture examples. I find the same result in many of my pictures as well. You can see the color pop I am talking about in these examples here: 500px.com/Rchrdvnsn In the first example, I only corrected the whites and highlights of the DNG so nothing is washed out and you can compare the true color of both pictures. In the close up of the leaf, there are no corrections. Both DNG and JPG are straight out of the camera. You will notice that there is red on the leaf in the JPG that isn't even present on the DNG. Saturating the DNG will not make it present either. I think the camera has some sort of curve adjustment software in house that affects the image when it takes it. I also manually focused it as you suggested, but this does not seem to help with the overexposure in the DNG. I will try it out some more, and hopefully that would help, but why would manual focus affect exposure anyways? wda I always shoot in full manual mode with iso, shutter, and aperture. It is possible that autofocus is messing with the exposure, but that doesn't explain the difference between exposure since the focus lock is the same for both JPG and DNG. Also manual focus should have solved that problem, but DNGs are still overexposed with manual focused shots. So either: 1. The Leica X's screen is showing correct exposure when really the picture is overexposed, and then after the picture is taken, it somehow corrects the overexposure in the jpeg to the correct exposure shown on screen... or 2. Lightroom has a terrible camera profile settings for Leica X and is overexposing the DNGs when it imports them. Ockham's razor implies that the problem is likely to be Lightroom, seeing that is the simplest explanation. My question is, how do we turn off Lightroom's camera corrections that it is making to the DNG while it imports? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoki Posted February 7, 2015 Share #8 Posted February 7, 2015 Lightroom will process the data you capture and present to it. Look at the histogram of jpeg in camera and in LR. My guess is that you are over-exposing in camera and seeing the in-camera processed jpeg which looks good but conceals the exposure error. LR can make corrections at your direction. Try taking an evenly illuminated subject and report on perceived exposure accuracy. Try manual exposure control rather than manual focusing. Often the exposure sampling point desired is not read if AF is locked elsewhere. I doubt your problem is exclusive to the Leica X which I do not have. I apply the techniques to my X1 and X Vario with success. Agree with you, since I do 'all-manuals' with the X, now I am able to enjoy nice jpegs coming from the camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okli Posted March 2, 2016 Share #9 Posted March 2, 2016 Hi, new to the forum and my first Leica X 113 camera ! However, I have the strange problem that my Lightroom is unable to recognize the camera profile if I import the DNG images. I have the latest Lightroom version (not from Leica if this matters) - version 6.4 with camera raw 9.4 . and if I check the Lens Profile it complains about "Unable to locate a matching profile automatically". As far as I understood the profile should be embedded, but in this case the Lightroom should confirm this with some meaningful message as with my Fuji X-T10. Someone experiencing this problem? Should I import the profile from somewhere (Leica homepage?) - I couldn't find anything so far? Any help will be highly appreciated. TIA, p.s. I've attached the screenshot with the Lightroom's message Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/240599-leica-x-type-113-and-lightroom/?do=findComment&comment=3000259'>More sharing options...
analog-photo Posted March 2, 2016 Share #10 Posted March 2, 2016 You don't have to apply LR Lens Correction since the camera has one fixed lens, any corrections needed will be done by the firmware in the camera. The LR Profile Correction is useful when you use a camera with interchangeable lenses, then LR has a lot of (useful) profiles for different lenses. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted March 2, 2016 Share #11 Posted March 2, 2016 ......1. The Leica X's screen is showing correct exposure when really the picture is overexposed, and then after the picture is taken, it somehow corrects the overexposure in the jpeg to the correct exposure shown on screen...... My advice is to concentrate on interpreting the Histogram rather than the appearance of the camera-processed Jpeg appearing on the camera screen. Learn to use the Histogram as a basis for making final adjustments of exposure. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalifornier Posted March 2, 2016 Share #12 Posted March 2, 2016 From my experience with the X2 (almost the same sensor as X 113) and various articles I've read, the X sensor works best when you shoot slightly under exposed in raw. So, as others have suggested, I use the histogram and stay on the left of the middle. As far as colors, I've had no issue. In fact, I have to make sure in vivid setting, it does not over saturate reds, as I recently found out trying to take a pic of a red barn. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okli Posted March 3, 2016 Share #13 Posted March 3, 2016 You don't have to apply LR Lens Correction since the camera has one fixed lens, any corrections needed will be done by the firmware in the camera. The LR Profile Correction is useful when you use a camera with interchangeable lenses, then LR has a lot of (useful) profiles for different lenses. Thanks - I've disabled the lens correction and now I can see the message about the in-camera profile has been applied Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okli Posted March 3, 2016 Share #14 Posted March 3, 2016 What I saw with very limited tests so far is that the camera tries to keep the highlights very strictly - the initial tests with the standard film produced dull / cold jpegs to me too. After that I switched to Vivid and the colours were here very pleasing (oranges, apples and bananas as test subjects) - really vivid but not oversaturated. The jpegs OOC were ok, the DNGs from LR clearly with blown out highlights at the spots where the light source reflected on the orange surface for example. I'm waiting here for the sun to come out for more tests. Regarding histogram - is it possible to turn it on on the lcd all the time? I think I turned everything on in the settings, but I can only verify the exposure AFTER the shot and not BEFORE I take the shot? Will be very helpful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalifornier Posted March 3, 2016 Share #15 Posted March 3, 2016 I don't have the camera in front of me, but I think you can turn histogram on from the menu "Rec Histogram" Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okli Posted March 10, 2016 Share #16 Posted March 10, 2016 After several photos I've ended using the jpegs only. The DNG files in Lightroom look really awful and it takes a lot of time to obtain good results. In opposite, if I use the vivid film mode I'm very satisfied with the resulting jpegs OOC - I only crop or level them in Lightroom, if necessary and that's all. Here are some photos from today - I hope posting the link here doesn't violate the forum's rules. https://goo.gl/photos/czVmrB8zVdKxGWwJ8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
analog-photo Posted March 12, 2016 Share #17 Posted March 12, 2016 After several photos I've ended using the jpegs only. The DNG files in Lightroom look really awful and it takes a lot of time to obtain good results. I disagree, if you take some time to create a development profile in LR it's really easy to work with the DNG-files. And you can make out more from the files compared with the OOC-jpg's that have limited possibilities since creating a jpg means deleting a lot of information in the file. I have a M (240) since a couple of years and bought a X just a couple of months ago and must say that the DNG's from the X are far less complicated to work with compared with the DNG's from the M. I'm still tweaking the M-profile, the X-file (sic) took me about an hour to set. One recent result below Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/240599-leica-x-type-113-and-lightroom/?do=findComment&comment=3006520'>More sharing options...
okli Posted March 16, 2016 Share #18 Posted March 16, 2016 Hi Lars, thanks that you share the photo. I can see here obviously the advantage of the raw - really difficult light conditions. What I actually wanted to point out is how different the x raw files look in Lightroom compared to the raw files imported from other camera brands. I can't say that I'm very satisfied with the initial look of my canon raw files in lightroom, but they are not so far from what I saw on the display of the camera. DPP makes the lightroom processing looking ugly, but not so much as the result between the jpegs from x and their dng import in lightroom. I have the feeling that lightroom is ignoring everything from the recorded settings - even the wb is completely wrong. I was hoping that if leica provides Lightroom license the integration would be better... Anyway, I have to prepare some calibration profiles - I can use them as base for developer settings. And I'm very satisfied with the camera so far! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted March 16, 2016 Share #19 Posted March 16, 2016 Hi Lars, thanks that you share the photo. I can see here obviously the advantage of the raw - really difficult light conditions. What I actually wanted to point out is how different the x raw files look in Lightroom compared to the raw files imported from other camera brands. I can't say that I'm very satisfied with the initial look of my canon raw files in lightroom, but they are not so far from what I saw on the display of the camera. DPP makes the lightroom processing looking ugly, but not so much as the result between the jpegs from x and their dng import in lightroom. I have the feeling that lightroom is ignoring everything from the recorded settings - even the wb is completely wrong. I was hoping that if leica provides Lightroom license the integration would be better... Anyway, I have to prepare some calibration profiles - I can use them as base for developer settings. And I'm very satisfied with the camera so far! For whatever reason, LR's camera calibration profile for the X typ 113 is pretty bad. I created a profile for the X with a color checker and the Xrite Passport software. It's much more accurate and easier to work with on that basis. I set LR to use it as the default when I import DNG files from the X. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okli Posted March 18, 2016 Share #20 Posted March 18, 2016 For whatever reason, LR's camera calibration profile for the X typ 113 is pretty bad. I created a profile for the X with a color checker and the Xrite Passport software. It's much more accurate and easier to work with on that basis. I set LR to use it as the default when I import DNG files from the X. Thanks for the info - I'm using the xrite tools as well, very helpful to know that they are giving good results Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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