Slide film appears to be whole new ballgame! Need a bit of help please!

[Julian Thompson]

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Got my first pack of slide film back today (finally!) from Fujilabs.

 

Firstly, the look is very special. I get it. (Though I am confused about WHY the look is so beautiful. I can't put my finger on it.

 

But, for some reason, all my shots appear to be underexposed but quite a bit! I did my normal thing of shooting to keep the highlights half sensible but letting the really bright stuff go and that side of it has worked but the shots are really dark!

 

Does slide film have a much narrower dynamic range than ordinary film?

 

How do I deal with it?

[NZDavid]

Glad you gave slide film a go, sorry the results were underexposed. Are you using an M6? The centerweighted meter is pretty accurate but requires care. If the scene is too contrasty (for example bright sky, dark foreground), you will never get a decent picture. Best to choose a more evenly lit subject or accept that parts of the scene will simply go dark. I think that approach applies to both slide and print film (or digital for that matter). The digital approach is to simply shoot first and hope for the best, or rely solely on post-processing to fix everything -- but that is another story.

 

That said, some films, for example, Astia, are better at recording shadow detail. Print film has more latitude than slide film, as in more tolerance to different exposures -- but I think that latitude is overrated anyway, and ALL scenes need accurate exposure. You can't rely on latitude alone. Dynamic range is something else, and refers to the range of tones that the film captures. Certainly slide film has a different look to print film, and often colors appear richer -- although that can simply be the result of the quality of the printing, and reflected versus transmitted light.

 

I am sure somebody else will have a more detailed and scientific explanation!

 

In practical terms: 1) Choose evenly lit subjects, or at least meter for those parts of the image you want perfectly exposed. 2) Practice! 3) Experiment with a handheld meter such as the Sekonic 308, and try both incident and reflected metering. 4) Find out about the sunny 16 rule and use this as a reference point for your exposures.

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[budrichard]

As you found out, using color reversal film requires a knowledge of film dynamic range, exposure technique and application. When I taught photography, I always insisted that students use color reversal film when learning because what you get back is not subject to developing or printing techniques that can render a less than ideal B&W negative usable.

In the extreme, one determines with an exposure meter the correct exposure from the important part of your scene with a gray card and there is only one correct exposure for that scene. In principle, one can be very detailed taking multiple readings or as commonly done today, using a spot type meter such as associated with the M6 and M7 to gain the correct exposure. If the dynamic range of the scene exceeds tha range of the film, there is nothing one can do make the scene pleasing. Note: Digital cameras can photograph the same scene with different exposures and one can put the two images together in processing to achieve a dynamic range not achievable with film.

Example, a scene in bright sunlight with parts in dark shadows, with color reversal film you just can't correctly expose so the whole image has the correct exposure.

If your exposure was from the sky area for example, the rest of the scene would be underexposed, you need to find something gray to meter from or in this case metering from ground area would lead to a good exposure, we hope.

I suggest a class from an accredited School of Art in photography where they still start from the basics.-Dick

BTW, I have absolutely no idea what type of meter or metering system you use? The assumption is that the meter or system is working correctly, but what the use of color reversal film will tell you is that there is a problem somewhere, which you have found out.

Edited June 15, 2010 by budrichard

[RPS]

Julian,

 

What film were you using?

[tgray]

Two pieces of advice:

- Try using an incident meter to get a good reading. Can take some of the confusion of what to meter out of the equation.

- When I first shot slide film, I heard several pieces of advice. One, underexpose 1/3-1/2 a stop to increase color saturation. Two, meter for the highlights and expose so they don't blow out. While those two things are true, to someone new to slide film, you can end up with underexposed slides until you get a better feel for it. So I'd ignore them and just shoot like you normally do at first.

 

On your next roll, try being a little more generous with exposure. The limited latitude of slide film does make exposure errors more evident, errors which you might have been making all along.

 

You can also bracket.

 

This of course assumes that everything is working properly on your camera.

[KM-25]

Welcome to a topic of education in photography that seems to have virtually disappeared in the digital age, a tough love class on light and how it works in the most subtle of fashions. By sheer virtue of it's limited exposure range, nothing teaches a photographer about the wrap of light better than slide film.

[andym911]

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if all shots were underexposed maybe your ASA setting on the camera or meter was incorrect.

 

jut a thought

andy

[Xmas]

the shots are really dark!

more exposure needed... try 1/2 stop and 1 stop more

Does slide film have a much narrower dynamic range than ordinary film?

The dynamic range of slides is wider then colour negative, but you have only 1/2 a stop of latitude, if you want to project...

 

The hight lights need to be just correct.

 

The color and dynamic range do make a difference.

 

Noel

Edited June 15, 2010 by Xmas
}

[andym911]

 

The dynamic range of slides is wider then colour negative,

 

Noel

 

Noel

are you sure about that?

 

best

andy

[holmes]

If I may interject. The old rule of under exposing by 1/3 or 1/2 went by the way side some years ago. Chromes (slides) film is much improved so you find few professionals underexposing, unless for a specific reason. I have few tell me to shoot Velvia ISO 50 and rate it at ISO 40. Not necessary. Try it for yourself. Shoot a roll at whatever the given ISO is and then shoot and other down 1/3 or 1/2. With chromes you must remember to expose for the highlights and let the shadows build up. Remember with transparencies you must make any adjustments prior to hitting the shutter release. There is nothing to correct errors in the darkroom with chromes as opposed to negative film.

[Julian Thompson]

Thanks everyone, sorry I've not got back sooner on this - I've been away with work.

 

Anyway, something interesting in the scanning maybe going on - I've held up a couple of slides to the light and they appear much better than my scans in the shadows so I'll have another go and report back.

[Xmas]

Noel

are you sure about that?

 

best

andy

 

The dynamic range on a projection is yes, compared to a print, the negative has built in masks to reduce the contrast to suit a wet print in mini lab.

 

There s no exposure latitude at all if you are fussy, + or - 1/3 stop bad

 

The scanner needs to be able to burn through the dark darks as well...

 

Noel

[NZDavid]

Scans are second generation. To assess the quality of a slide, you need to look at it on a lightbox with a loupe, or project it. Worth getting hold of both a lightbox and projector. Can you supply more details on film, camera, exposure settings, and where and how scanned?

[symmetron]

Practice, and bracket until you get the "feel" for your meter. Every camera and film is different.

[tgray]

If I may interject. The old rule of under exposing by 1/3 or 1/2 went by the way side some years ago.

 

That may be true. I still hear it as advice quite a bit online.

 

The dynamic range on a projection is yes, compared to a print, the negative has built in masks to reduce the contrast to suit a wet print in mini lab.

 

That's true. I think people were referring to the captured scene dynamic range. Which is lower. It also contributes to lower exposure latitude.

[andym911]

 

 

That's true. I think people were referring to the captured scene dynamic range. Which is lower. It also contributes to lower exposure latitude.

 

Indeed that was my thought...

For example if I photograph a stepped grayscale on a Neg film and the same with a slide film, I would see more separated gray steps on the neg than on the slide right?

 

tx

andy

[tgray]

Indeed that was my thought...

For example if I photograph a stepped grayscale on a Neg film and the same with a slide film, I would see more separated gray steps on the neg than on the slide right?

 

Yes.

 

It's all in the spec sheets of a given film. Find the characteristic curve in there. The x-axis gives you the scene dynamic range you can capture. The y-axis gives you the dynamic range of the film itself if you viewed it.

 

I've attached two examples of Kodak film. E100G and Portra 160NC. Look at the E100G one. The curve lifts up somewhere around -0.3 (not being exact here). It starts to roll over at around -2.1ish. That gives you a scene dynamic range of 1.8 units of log exposure. Every 0.3 of log exposure is equivalent to a stop. So you can capture around 6 stops of scene dynamic range. Looking at the y-axis, you can see the dmin is about .1 and dmax goes up past 3.3, depending on the color layer. So yes, the dynamic range (density range) of the slide film itself is pretty large.

 

Next up, Portra. The film curves lift up a bit before -2.0. They keep going strong up to 1.0 and probably beyond. But at the very least they are linear until 1.0. So you get a range of 3 in log exposure, which is equivalent to 10 stops. You probably get more than that in the highlights, but at some point they go nonlinear. Meanwhile, the density range of a given color layer is about 2. So not only is the film less dense but it represents more scene dynamic range.

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[Guest AgXlove]

Does slide film have a much narrower dynamic range than ordinary film?

 

How do I deal with it?

Yes, E6 film has a much more narrow exposure latitude than does any print film. This makes accurate metering critical.

 

I use my Sekonic L508 to meter for E6 (either incident or spot, depending on the situation) and ignore my camera's internal meter. this works well (for me, at least). Also, be sure your light meter is set to the same ISO as your film.

 

You might want to try Fuji Velvia 100 film, as it has more exposure latitude than many E6 films. Fuji Astia is also said to be more forgiving exposure wise.

 

Regarding exposing Velvia 50 at ISO 40 - all you're doing is overexposing by 1/3 stop; doing this has no effect on the narrow exposure latitude of Velvia 50. Some like the look of Velvia at ISO 40, some prefer it at ISO 50. Either way, the exposure latitude is the same.

 

I have found the main key to E6 film is uniform lighting.

 

In other words, adjust your camera position so that all of your subject or scene is in direct light or in shade (or in shadows) if shooting outdoors. Same thing for shooting indoors - don't mix bright light and shadows in your scene.

 

Of course, this may require some tradeoffs in composition; sometimes it's just not possible to do this and get the composition you want. Then you have to consider using a reflector (if possible) or flash - or live with the underexposure in the shadow areas.

 

Hand meter.

Correct ISO.

Uniform lighting.

 

Those three will go a long ways in getting you good exposure with E6 film. That's been my experience.

Edited June 19, 2010 by AgXlove

[gberger]

Julian,

 

I've been shooting chromes almost exclusively since the early 1940's (Kodachrome, Afga, Fujichrome). I learned long ago to use a reliable meter and to use incident readings whenever practicable. In almost seventy years, I've been through just about every decent meter available - - - from the early GE's up through various Norwoods, Weston Masters, Minoltas and Sekonics.

 

IMO, the most practical external exposure meter is the Sekonic 308S. It fits in your shirt pocket, is used for both incident and reflective readings, runs on a single AA alkaline battery, is very easy to use, and is highly accurate with repeatable results. The reading you'll get fall well within the M6 error ranges for exposure settings.

 

Just my ancient three cents

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[Julian Thompson]

Hi again everyone,

 

Thanks for your help once more on this.

 

I have re-scanned the images, and although my scanning routine which is perfected for negatives is clearly falling some way short of the mark it is clear that I AM underexposing the majority of my slide shots.

 

I don't want to move to an incedent meter just at the moment, so, for my next roll of slide film would the rule be to expose for the shadows within reason? Or would I be better following Noel's advice and shooting slides at +.5 ev or something?