M8 viewfinder with 21 (28fov)

[steve_l]

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Has anyone who has held an M8 checked to see if the full viewfinder picture (not the frame lines) could be used to frame the 28mm FOV of a 21mm lens?

 

It took them many years to realize that 28mm fov was needed....and now they have forgotten, or just assumed that 32mm fov (from the 24mm lens) would be enough without an external finder...

[Leicaiste]

Here is a picture of the finder with 24mm frames;

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[grober]

Let's all get some clarity on the viewfinder frame issue. To wit:

 

If I attach the Leica 24mm Elmarit to the M8, the appropriate 24/35 frame snaps into view. I do NOT need any auxiliary viewfinder, right?

 

The ONLY auxiliary viewfinder I'll need on the M8 is when I attach a Leica (or other) 21mm lens, yes? If this is true, I'll need two different auxiliary finders for any 21mm lens: one for film 'M" bodies and one for the M8.

 

(In other words, the frames provided by Leica in the M8 in its viewfinder already factor in the 1.33x thingy.)

 

Anyone see this differently?

 

-g

[marknorton]

JW

 

The M8 provides a set of frame lines which accurately reflect the angle of view provided by the lens mounted and the sensor.

 

Both the M7 and the M8 provide 3 pairs of viewfinder frames, one for 28/90, one for 50/75. The difference is that the M7 provides one for 35/135 but that is now 24/35 in the M8.

 

Therefore, mounting any of the 24/28/35/50/75/90 lenses will provide a viewfinder frame without the need for an aux finder. For the longest and/or fastest lenses in that range, the 1.25 finder magnifier will improve the accuracy of focussing. Think 50mmm/f1, 75mm/f1.4, 90mm/f2.

 

Below 24mm, an aux finder will be required. You can use the old finder set to 28mm to give an accurate view when a 21mm lens is mounted.

 

There is also the new "Universal" finder which provides 5 separate frames for 16/18/21/24/28 which is ideal for M7 users who can only go as wide as 28mm "native". This single finder supports the 21mm, the 24mm and the new Tri-Elmar for them.

 

What we don't know is how it works on the M8. Andy thinks you will need to adjust for the crop factor making the 16 and 18 settings redundant so that if you select 16mm on the lens, you will dial in 21mm on the finder. My hope is that it will work with 16/18/21/24/28 on the M8 as well without correction and redundant settings. The finder alone costs much more than most people pay for a digital camera so it has to do something!

[grober]

Thanks Mark for an excellent confirmation of what I hoped was true.

 

I opted for the Zeiss 25mm w.a. as my mid-wide of choice, although the 21mm Elmarit remains my "extreme" w. a. optic of choice. I also chose the excellent Zeiss 25/28 viewfinder. So, when I attach the 21mm to my M8, I should be able to use the Zeiss v/f on the M8 and be just fine.

 

NOT buying an additional 21mm v/f for the M8 will free up capital for the Leica M8 handgrip.

 

-g

[marknorton]

JW

 

Keep in mind that, according the Sean, the Zeiss 25mm does not bring up the Leica 24mm frame but the 28mm frame instead - and it remains to be seen whether Zeiss will offer a replacement bayonet ring to bring up the correct frame. The good news is that the lug which does the work is shorter on a 24/35/135 than on a 21/28/90, so you could just get out the Dremel...

 

Your 28mm finder will work fine when you mount the 21mm Elmarit.

 

I much prefer to use a rangefinder without a neck strap but I'll need to be convinced the M8 is not going to slip from my grip and end up on the floor. That would NOT be a good day.

[grober]

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UGH! I hadn't read that comment about the Biogon not working perfectly on the M8.

 

Of course, I intend to continue using my 25mm Biogon on my film body in addition to the new M8 so I won't "dremel away" any part of its Zeiss mount.

 

I figured there'd be a wrinkle or two if only meant as a landmine set by Leica for their "friends" at Zeiss.

 

-g

[humanized_form]

hmmm....i wonder then if the legacy LTM and VC lenses with M adapter rings will bring up the proper frame lines?

[marknorton]

UGH! I hadn't read that comment about the Biogon not working perfectly on the M8.

 

Of course, I intend to continue using my 25mm Biogon on my film body in addition to the new M8 so I won't "dremel away" any part of its Zeiss mount.

 

I figured there'd be a wrinkle or two if only meant as a landmine set by Leica for their "friends" at Zeiss.

 

-g

 

Your existing lens will be displaying the 28 and 90mm frames on an M7 so dremelling away will cause it to display the 35 and 135mm frames which is what the Leica 24mm does. On the M8, it will then display the 24 and 35mm frames.

 

Trouble is, Leica did not formally specify what lug position should be used for lenses shorter than 28mm. Zeiss appear to have gone for 28/90 for the 25mm lens, Leica have gone for 35/135mm for the 24mm and 28/90mm for the 21mm.

 

So, IMHO, any fixed lens mount from Zeiss will just have some of that lens flange dremelled away to get the right frame set up. I can just see them now in Oberkochen...

[steve_l]

My point was to ask if the built-in viewfinder picture using the whole visible space would show roughly a 28mm FOV, allowing the use of a 21mm lens without an aux finder.

 

the new multifinder, with its low magnification, will show only a small box in the middle for the 21mm (28fov) frame - this might be fine for telephotos, which tend to be used to isolate elements in the image, but will not be good for wide angles, which tend to be used to gather in lots of elements into one image - and which therefor need a large viewing space to make any sense of what is in the frame

 

the other way, of course, is to just use a specific separate 28mm fov finder, but it would be nice to not have to switch finders that often.

[jrc]

Steve,

 

Looking at the view through the 24/35 frames, it looks to me like the full-view (ignoring the frames) should be very close to covering the 21. When I get my M8, I plan to take some shots of a newspaper, from a tripod, to see exactly what the coverage will be with a 21. For my kind of photography, I don't need anything more than a 28mm FOV (which would be the 21 on the M8) so I would certainly like to avoid buying that finder if I can.

 

JC

[rvaubel]

Steve,

 

Looking at the view through the 24/35 frames, it looks to me like the full-view (ignoring the frames) should be very close to covering the 21. When I get my M8, I plan to take some shots of a newspaper, from a tripod, to see exactly what the coverage will be with a 21. For my kind of photography, I don't need anything more than a 28mm FOV (which would be the 21 on the M8) so I would certainly like to avoid buying that finder if I can.

 

JC

 

If the full view (ignoring the frames) doesn't work with your 21mm lens because of glasses issues or whatever, don't despair. I plan to leave my VC 28-35 minifinder permanently mounted on the hotshoe. Thus I will have a good framelines for all my lenses from 21mm up or 28mm equivalent. Thus no finder fumbling.

 

Rex

[waterlenz]

Your existing lens will be displaying the 28 and 90mm frames on an M7 so dremelling away will cause it to display the 35 and 135mm frames which is what the Leica 24mm does. On the M8, it will then display the 24 and 35mm frames.

 

Trouble is, Leica did not formally specify what lug position should be used for lenses shorter than 28mm. Zeiss appear to have gone for 28/90 for the 25mm lens, Leica have gone for 35/135mm for the 24mm and 28/90mm for the 21mm.

 

So, IMHO, any fixed lens mount from Zeiss will just have some of that lens flange dremelled away to get the right frame set up. I can just see them now in Oberkochen...

 

 

Thanks for posting this info. I was wondering about this issue. I wonder if the lens mounts on the CZ lenses can be simply swapped out? I am hoping that someone comes out with a faster 24 or 25mm; f/1.4 would be nice! Less than 24x36mm coverage would be acceptable.

Tom

[ChipNovaMac]

If I am following the OP's post, the question is one that came up with the M6TTL/M7/MP with the .58 viewfinder. That is that for some users the extreme edges of the viewfinder were enough to make do with a 24mm lens.

 

It would seem to me for non-critical work, that a 21mm mounted on the M8 would give enough FOV in the viewfinder to cover the 28mm FOV that the 21mm gives verses the 32mm FOV of the 24mm lens in the viewfinder.

[sean_reid]

JW

 

The M8 provides a set of frame lines which accurately reflect the angle of view provided by the lens mounted and the sensor.

 

Both the M7 and the M8 provide 3 pairs of viewfinder frames, one for 28/90, one for 50/75. The difference is that the M7 provides one for 35/135 but that is now 24/35 in the M8.

 

Therefore, mounting any of the 24/28/35/50/75/90 lenses will provide a viewfinder frame without the need for an aux finder. For the longest and/or fastest lenses in that range, the 1.25 finder magnifier will improve the accuracy of focussing. Think 50mmm/f1, 75mm/f1.4, 90mm/f2.

 

Below 24mm, an aux finder will be required. You can use the old finder set to 28mm to give an accurate view when a 21mm lens is mounted.

 

There is also the new "Universal" finder which provides 5 separate frames for 16/18/21/24/28 which is ideal for M7 users who can only go as wide as 28mm "native". This single finder supports the 21mm, the 24mm and the new Tri-Elmar for them.

 

What we don't know is how it works on the M8. Andy thinks you will need to adjust for the crop factor making the 16 and 18 settings redundant so that if you select 16mm on the lens, you will dial in 21mm on the finder. My hope is that it will work with 16/18/21/24/28 on the M8 as well without correction and redundant settings. The finder alone costs much more than most people pay for a digital camera so it has to do something!

 

Hi Mark,

 

I just today modified the review to further explain the new Universal finder. My preference, for the M8 alone is the 21/24/28 finder which I also discuss in the revised article.

 

Best,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

hmmm....i wonder then if the legacy LTM and VC lenses with M adapter rings will bring up the proper frame lines?

 

There's no reason that the adapters for 28 and up lenses shouldn't bring up the same frame lines they do on an M7. When Zeiss designed the 25, no rangefinder showed frame lines for a 24 so they seem to have aimed for the closest possible frame lines (28) and assumed, correctly, that people would use an accessory finder for a 25. Now the M8 has brought the 24mm focal length to a new prominence.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

My point was to ask if the built-in viewfinder picture using the whole visible space would show roughly a 28mm FOV, allowing the use of a 21mm lens without an aux finder.

 

the new multifinder, with its low magnification, will show only a small box in the middle for the 21mm (28fov) frame - this might be fine for telephotos, which tend to be used to isolate elements in the image, but will not be good for wide angles, which tend to be used to gather in lots of elements into one image - and which therefor need a large viewing space to make any sense of what is in the frame

 

the other way, of course, is to just use a specific separate 28mm fov finder, but it would be nice to not have to switch finders that often.

 

Hi Steve,

 

I didn't have a 21 around with either of the M8s I worked with but I think the finder will be a little tight for a 28 mm EFOV. Close maybe, but tight.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[steve_l]

thanks, Sean....

 

I wonder if the Leica magnifier will attach to the universal finder to make the 28 frame a little bigger so the image can be seen in detail?

[steve_l]

Actually, as Sean points out on his site, the Leica 21/24/28 finder will work well and give a much larger image than the new universal finder for the M8, due to its inherent larger magnifaction factor...for those who want the new Tri-elmar only for the M8, it will be a much better choice, due to image size....

 

Is that right?

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[marknorton]

Thanks Sean, I'm coming from behind here as I have never used any sort of aux finder. As most people know (yawn!), I was hoping for a dual magnification finder but it was not to be.

 

The existing 21/24/28 finder has had bad press in terms of quality - mechanical and optical but, labelling aside, the three settings match the focal lengths of the new Tri-Elmar when used on an M8. If all I wanted to do was to provide a finder for the 21mm, 28mm EqFoV, I'd be tempted to look at 28mm finders from other vendors.

 

My problem with the Univeral finder is that it partly inhabits a universe which I do not. I do not do film. There's no benefit to me of being able to see the FoV of the 16mm on a 35mm camera because I only do digital. Envy maybe, benefit, no.

 

I daresay I'll buy the new Tri-Elmar with the finder at the bundled price but will look at ways of making it M8 only - swap the masks, change the labelling, who knows.