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jfaier

The ongoing M8 market

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Like everyone I am excited my the M9 introduction, but this makes me a bit sad regarding my two M8 bodies / one silver and one black. I have considered selling these bodies and I go back and forth on the whole internal debate. Camera retailers tell me the used price of the M8 will be in sharp decline when the M9's begin to ship. I am curious what some thoughts are among all of you here. part of me feels that at $7K / which is nearly 3x the cost of a used M8, the M8 will be in demand - it is a fine camera. Retailed, and scavengers in the used market tell me the camera price will drop below $1,500 - this is crazy. I have taken photos using it that produce better prints than, say a Canon 1 ds MK II. Any thoughts here and speculation?

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No one can do more than guess. I can't tell you whether, five years from now, this will have been the worst time to sell an M8/8.2. I can tell you that right now there are a lot of M8/8.2 owners who want to become M9 owners and are going to sell to finance the FF camera. Supply will exceed demand for some period and that will have predictable effects. But, there are a lot of unknowns. Will Leica continue to support the M8? Will the M9 develop problems after it has had some real field use in production numbers? These and many other things could affect prices. Unless you find the M9 absolutely compelling, I'd hold for a while, but YMMV.

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I have no choice but to hold off. My only hope is to get one used a year from now. In the meantime I went from an M8u to an M8.2. The M8.2 whether a true upgrade or not, will satisfy my compulsion for now. My prediction is that once the frenzy is over M8 prices will stabilize. The ebay market is a good indicator.

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Like everyone I am excited my the M9 introduction, but this makes me a bit sad regarding my two M8 bodies / one silver and one black. I have considered selling these bodies and I go back and forth on the whole internal debate. Camera retailers tell me the used price of the M8 will be in sharp decline when the M9's begin to ship. I am curious what some thoughts are among all of you here. part of me feels that at $7K / which is nearly 3x the cost of a used M8, the M8 will be in demand - it is a fine camera. Retailed, and scavengers in the used market tell me the camera price will drop below $1,500 - this is crazy. I have taken photos using it that produce better prints than, say a Canon 1 ds MK II. Any thoughts here and speculation?

 

It all depends whether you regard your Leicas purely as financial investments or serious picture-making machines. If the latter, you can ignore all speculation and continue to get remarkable value and quality results from your two M8s. I know what I would do!

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Retailed, and scavengers in the used market tell me the camera price will drop below $1,500 - this is crazy. I have taken photos using it that produce better prints than, say a Canon 1 ds MK II. Any thoughts here and speculation?

 

I asume this is going to happen. I had two M8´s. I sold one a year ago and got 3000€ for it. If you look at ebay they are going for 1900€ now.

 

This is no more the old Leica market where you still have a value after years. The improvment of technology is just too significant.

 

The sooner you sell the more you get.

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I asume this is going to happen. I had two M8´s. I sold one a year ago and got 3000€ for it. If you look at ebay they are going for 1900€ now.

 

This is no more the old Leica market where you still have a value after years. The improvment of technology is just too significant.

 

The sooner you sell the more you get.

 

Its all speculation obviously at this stage but I don't agree. Looking at Nikon prices for example. What killed the D2x resale value is not it's replacement, the FF D3 but the 'intermediate' models D300 and D700. Those can be had for between £1,000 and £1700 new and both would have a strong claim for offering better IQ, better high ISO performance and in the case of the D700 - FF. So no wonder my D2x is worth less than 35% of what I paid.

 

With Leica there is no 'intermediate' option and not even the X1 at around £1,300 will realistically compete with the M8. So you are left with the M9 at £4.850 (or higher in the UK with VAT increases in January) or nothing. I suspect that M8 prices will stablise at £1,500 to £1,800 when the availability of new M8s dries up. M8.2s maybe 20% higher as long as Leica continues to support the M8.

 

Or I may be wrong! I'll be keeping my M8 whatever. On the other hand, If I can buy a second M8 for less than £1,000 that would be OK with me too!!

Edited by ptarmigan

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The M9 might be good value compared with a new M8.2, but when there's a mint, little used M8 in the house, is it worth the £3,350 trade-up from a image taking POV ?

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The M9 might be good value compared with a new M8.2, but when there's a mint, little used M8 in the house, is it worth the £3,350 trade-up from a image taking POV ?

A good question, Rolo.

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The M9 might be good value compared with a new M8.2, but when there's a mint, little used M8 in the house, is it worth the £3,350 trade-up from a image taking POV ?

 

For me: certainly not. In my eyes the M9 is an M8.3 with a bigger sensor minus essential top display and useful sapphire glass. I'll happily stay with my M8u until a really improved digital M comes along.

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I asume this is going to happen. I had two M8´s. I sold one a year ago and got 3000€ for it. If you look at ebay they are going for 1900€ now.

 

This is no more the old Leica market where you still have a value after years. The improvment of technology is just too significant.

 

The sooner you sell the more you get.

 

Maybe, but if you're buying an M9 the depreciation on that will be greater (moneywise) than your old M8 over a year or two. I would hold on to the M8 whilst the M9 secondhand market sorts itself out.

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Like everyone I am excited my the M9 introduction, but this makes me a bit sad regarding my two M8 bodies / one silver and one black. I have considered selling these bodies and I go back and forth on the whole internal debate. Camera retailers tell me the used price of the M8 will be in sharp decline when the M9's begin to ship. I am curious what some thoughts are among all of you here. part of me feels that at $7K / which is nearly 3x the cost of a used M8, the M8 will be in demand - it is a fine camera. Retailed, and scavengers in the used market tell me the camera price will drop below $1,500 - this is crazy. I have taken photos using it that produce better prints than, say a Canon 1 ds MK II. Any thoughts here and speculation?

 

My thoughts are as follow: that's tha way it goes today with any kind of electronic device, being it a computer or a digital camera.

When the new one comes out, the old one loose almost completely its value.

The problem here, is that if you want to buy an M9 you just have to ask yourself "will I still use the M8 or not?"

If you don't, than sell it and use the money to buy the new one.

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I agree with Enrico. It's a sad fact of modern life, that most electronic items do not hold their value anymore.

 

But... The important question is... Do you actually need to get a new camera, or is it just a case of must-have-the-latest-gadget?

 

I will be keeping, and using, my M8 for quite some time, as it suits my needs. I don't need high-iso, and so the claimed improvements in that don't worry me. I like having a 1/250 flash sync speed, and as I no longer use my M lenses on a film camera, the 'crop' factor doesn't concern me. I've tailored my lens collection to match the M8. The M8 can produce amazing results, and I have no complaints with the resolution.

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Right now the market is quivering with hype about the M9. Everything, including the fact that there's a long waiting list, is creating a "must have" fever. The M8 is left in the marketing dust. But is it left in the photographic dust? For many of us, not really.

 

The M9 looks like a fantastic camera. I hope Leica sells a lot of M9s, and does well. I may get one someday. In the meantime, my M8 takes just as good pictures today as it did a month ago.

 

Now is probably the worst time to sell, anyway. All the people that "must have" an M9 now are going to dump their M8s on the market.

 

So if you view the M8 as an investment, or a mere stepping stone to the M9, well then, sell. Or look in your crystal ball and see if you can divine whether used M8 prices will stabilize, fall or even rise a bit once the M9 situation gets off the initial marketing surge and back to reality. It's possible that used M8 prices are artificially depressed by the initial M9 surge.

 

On the other hand, if the M8 works well for you, why not wait and see how much better the M9 really is, once it is in the hands of a lot of people, and they post their pictures. The M8 has no feelings, it will not suddenly take worse pictures because it's depressed over being superceded by its younger brother. Then you can decide whether to sell and upgrade based on what is, rather than on what might be.

Edited by pklein

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I've argued in favor of full-frame for a long time now, but once I'd had a chance to shoot with the M9 I realised two things:

 

1. the character of the lenses is best expressed on full-frame film, and the fullness of their character isn't really carried over onto full-frame digital as completely as I'd hoped;

 

2. I suddenly realised how I've come to love the look of the M8 files, and also the cropped field-of-view. I predict that the 75 focal length is gonna have a massive increase in popularity, as people who've used the M8 with their 50s are going to crave the more intimate look to their portraits again, after becoming accustomed to the 67mm fov of the M8.

Ironically enough, people continue to take the same pictures regardless of their equipment - within a few weeks the excitement of the new format will wear off, and these new owners will have difficulty differentiating their M8 from their M9 images, apart from filesize. Pictures of the cat will still be pictures of the cat; with the M9 they'll be using their brand-new 75 summarit instead of their old 50 summicron on the M8.

 

While I really hope the M9 is a success, and that Leica sell an enormous number of them and continue to prosper, I do feel sad that many people feel they have to disparage the M8 as part of the process: there's much talk of the lenses finally being used as they were 'intended' or of the M8 having been a 'substitute' or 'not real' M. A lot of this talk is coming from people who never even owned an M camera before, or who previously defended the crop before they discovered that Leica (or Kodak) were capable of producing a full-frame camera. What's more, most people can't even guess which lens has been used to capture an image, if they're asked in a blind test.

 

If good sense were to prevail, the M8 should have a renaissance: the files are sharper, have better color differentiation, and I personally prefer the tonality of the sensor over the M9.

Unfortunately, when it comes to digital, the latest is the greatest - so the M8 will inevitably sink in value over the coming months and years, just as the M9 will sink without trace when the M9.4 with dual Maestro chips and a truly better sensor emerges.

 

Don't get carried along with the hype is my recommendation: if you believe some of the reviewers (especially the ones actually selling the camera themselves) pretty much everything on the M9 is supposedly "one stop better" than the M8 (I think even the paintwork is supposed to be "one stop better"). The truth is, your own eye is the most important link in the chain.

 

Make your images "one stop better" by being a better photographer, not by buying the latest equipment.

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I've argued in favor of full-frame for a long time now, but once I'd had a chance to shoot with the M9 I realised two things:

 

1. the character of the lenses is best expressed on full-frame film, and the fullness of their character isn't really carried over onto full-frame digital as completely as I'd hoped;

 

2. I suddenly realised how I've come to love the look of the M8 files, and also the cropped field-of-view. I predict that the 75 focal length is gonna have a massive increase in popularity, as people who've used the M8 with their 50s are going to crave the more intimate look to their portraits again, after becoming accustomed to the 67mm fov of the M8.

Ironically enough, people continue to take the same pictures regardless of their equipment - within a few weeks the excitement of the new format will wear off, and these new owners will have difficulty differentiating their M8 from their M9 images, apart from filesize. Pictures of the cat will still be pictures of the cat; with the M9 they'll be using their brand-new 75 summarit instead of their old 50 summicron on the M8.

 

While I really hope the M9 is a success, and that Leica sell an enormous number of them and continue to prosper, I do feel sad that many people feel they have to disparage the M8 as part of the process: there's much talk of the lenses finally being used as they were 'intended' or of the M8 having been a 'substitute' or 'not real' M. A lot of this talk is coming from people who never even owned an M camera before, or who previously defended the crop before they discovered that Leica (or Kodak) were capable of producing a full-frame camera. What's more, most people can't even guess which lens has been used to capture an image, if they're asked in a blind test.

 

If good sense were to prevail, the M8 should have a renaissance: the files are sharper, have better color differentiation, and I personally prefer the tonality of the sensor over the M9.

Unfortunately, when it comes to digital, the latest is the greatest - so the M8 will inevitably sink in value over the coming months and years, just as the M9 will sink without trace when the M9.4 with dual Maestro chips and a truly better sensor emerges.

 

Don't get carried along with the hype is my recommendation: if you believe some of the reviewers (especially the ones actually selling the camera themselves) pretty much everything on the M9 is supposedly "one stop better" than the M8 (I think even the paintwork is supposed to be "one stop better"). The truth is, your own eye is the most important link in the chain.

 

Make your images "one stop better" by being a better photographer, not by buying the latest equipment.

 

A great dose of reality in many ways. Thanks.

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1. the character of the lenses is best expressed on full-frame film, and the fullness of their character isn't really carried over onto full-frame digital as completely as I'd hoped.

 

Very interesting - can you elaborate a little? I am curious/fascinated, not baiting you.

 

2. I suddenly realised how I've come to love the look of the M8 files, and also the cropped field-of-view. I predict that the 75 focal length is gonna have a massive increase in popularity, as people who've used the M8 with their 50s are going to crave the more intimate look to their portraits again, after becoming accustomed to the 67mm fov of the M8.

 

I would be amazed if this is not 100% correct.

 

Don't get carried along with the hype is my recommendation: .

 

I was a wicked slow foot-dragger on digital precisely because of the DX issue. I found out that it existed only between my ears and had nothing to do with my eyes. I really think an awful lot of FF talk is bunk, although better high ISO performance is not and is often realized with FF sensors. However, listening to talk about that you would have thought that Kodak, Fuji and Ilford sold 10x rolls of ISO 1600 film for every roll of 400 or lower, and that isn't even remotely true. People are looking for excuses to spend money on the latest new thing.

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Very interesting - can you elaborate a little? I am curious/fascinated, not baiting you.

 

These judgements are totally subjective naturally, and in my case this boils down to nothing more nor less than that all of my favorite images to date have been taken on an M6 with a Noctilux. There is something almost unworldly about the look of a great Noctilux shot on film, I really can't express or pinpoint what it is, but it's there for me.

 

So I took the Noctilux with me when I tested the M9.

 

Believe me, almost my biggest fear was that it would be really, really good - that I'd have the same tremulous feeling about the portraits as I do when I look at some Portra shots of my partner or friends - because then it was gonna cost me a lot of money to have that camera, which I really would have to own if it had been that good.

 

Luckily for me it simply wasn't. The images to me look simply like bigger M8 shots - but with a tonality that didn't appeal to me as much as the M8, and with some other issues that are personal.

 

I'm sure those with more talent than me will make excellent use of the M9. I'll wait for a while.

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I've argued in favor of full-frame for a long time now, but once I'd had a chance to shoot with the M9 I realised two things:

 

1. the character of the lenses is best expressed on full-frame film, and the fullness of their character isn't really carried over onto full-frame digital as completely as I'd hoped;

 

2. I suddenly realised how I've come to love the look of the M8 files, and also the cropped field-of-view. I predict that the 75 focal length is gonna have a massive increase in popularity, as people who've used the M8 with their 50s are going to crave the more intimate look to their portraits again, after becoming accustomed to the 67mm fov of the M8.

Ironically enough, people continue to take the same pictures regardless of their equipment - within a few weeks the excitement of the new format will wear off, and these new owners will have difficulty differentiating their M8 from their M9 images, apart from filesize. Pictures of the cat will still be pictures of the cat; with the M9 they'll be using their brand-new 75 summarit instead of their old 50 summicron on the M8.

 

While I really hope the M9 is a success, and that Leica sell an enormous number of them and continue to prosper, I do feel sad that many people feel they have to disparage the M8 as part of the process: there's much talk of the lenses finally being used as they were 'intended' or of the M8 having been a 'substitute' or 'not real' M. A lot of this talk is coming from people who never even owned an M camera before, or who previously defended the crop before they discovered that Leica (or Kodak) were capable of producing a full-frame camera. What's more, most people can't even guess which lens has been used to capture an image, if they're asked in a blind test.

 

If good sense were to prevail, the M8 should have a renaissance: the files are sharper, have better color differentiation, and I personally prefer the tonality of the sensor over the M9.

Unfortunately, when it comes to digital, the latest is the greatest - so the M8 will inevitably sink in value over the coming months and years, just as the M9 will sink without trace when the M9.4 with dual Maestro chips and a truly better sensor emerges.

 

Don't get carried along with the hype is my recommendation: if you believe some of the reviewers (especially the ones actually selling the camera themselves) pretty much everything on the M9 is supposedly "one stop better" than the M8 (I think even the paintwork is supposed to be "one stop better"). The truth is, your own eye is the most important link in the chain.

 

Make your images "one stop better" by being a better photographer, not by buying the latest equipment.

 

Thank you for these well balanced thoughts from the real world. What a relief to read after all that over-excited hype on this forum!

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I won't let the market determine the value of my M8. It is the same camera I bought three years ago and except for the FF feature and larger pixel count, essentially performs just as well and in some cases some would even argue better than an M9.

 

I found a less expensive way to satisfy my FF need and larger pixel count, a Canon 5D II (I had no problem selling my old 5D for that). I recently added a 90mm Elmarit R to my lens collection and I'm having lots of fun with it on the 5D II, especially when I need a high ISO setting and low noise ( http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/other/99813-under-boardwalk.html. ). I'll probably buy at least one more R lens for it, perhaps a 35mm Summicron. The large LCD screen is also a joy to use. The Zeiss lenses I use on it are marvelous.

 

I might be persuaded to invest in an M10 (but it will have to have a decent size LCD at least as big as the one on my Canon Digital Rebel) . I have to say, the M9 has not impressed me. I can almost bet there will be some M9 upgrades along the way, like a Saphire LCD for another $1000.00. I'm not going there, enough is enough. BTW If the M10 comes in at a ridiculous price, then the M8 might be the last Leica camera I will ever purchase new. The M8 remains an awesome tool, nothing has changed. The market value is artificial, it means nothing when it comes to taking photographs.

Edited by wilfredo

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I'm selling the entire kit: M8 plus lenses.

 

Forty-three years a Leica M user. Camera succession: M3, M3, M6, M6, M4, M7, M8. (The M7 was the best IMHO!)

 

It's been fun with great friends made along the way too! But now other priorities loom . . . and all requiring copius amounts of cash to slay.

 

Bye.

 

-g

Edited by grober

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