Doc Henry Posted September 14, 2009 Share #1 Posted September 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi All, I spent my morning of Saturday 3 days after the official exit of M9 , to take photos with the new M9 and to compare with my M8.1. All photos are taken at the same time, from the same instant and with the same shot -M9 with Summicron 35mm f:8 160 ISO in DNG -M8.1 with Summicron 28 mm f:8 (equivalent 35mm) 160 ISO in DNG All DNG converted in TIFF and posted in PNG on the forum. All photos are not corrected and i made no modification. I took our City Hall (17th century) which i know very well and which i had also taken in film (M7) as well as its garden and its flowers. For example look at the stone, sculptures.... First M9 and after M8.1 The first series.....photos and 100% crops Comments are welcome. Thanks Henry Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96811-m9-versus-m81-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1035055'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Hi Doc Henry, Take a look here M9 versus M8.1 tests. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wilfredo Posted September 14, 2009 Share #2 Posted September 14, 2009 Thanks for posting. No significant difference as far as I can tell, except in the cropping, which is to be expected. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted September 14, 2009 Share #3 Posted September 14, 2009 It's great of you to post them but unless you're using the same lens and cropping down accordingly I'm not so sure if the comparison is very useful? But then I'm no expert! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted September 14, 2009 Share #4 Posted September 14, 2009 There appear to be differences in colour rendition but in all honesty I find it hard to see any major difference at this size of picture. I actually feel the M8.1 shots are a tad sharper but that could be wishful thinking on my part. LouisB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted September 14, 2009 Share #5 Posted September 14, 2009 wilfredo - there is no cropping as far as I can tell - he's used a different lens to try and simulate what you might do to get a certain shot. Unfortunately the character differences of the lens are ( in my opinion ) going to render this not useful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted September 14, 2009 Thanks Wilfredo,Julian and Louis for your comments... @ Julian, for the M8.1 the 28mm is equivalent almost to the 35mm isn't? Second series: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96811-m9-versus-m81-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1035099'>More sharing options...
Elliott J Posted September 14, 2009 Share #7 Posted September 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, I would be curious to see a 100% crop with just the 35mm used on both cameras. Thanks! EJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted September 14, 2009 Share #8 Posted September 14, 2009 Yes I understand what you mean - the field of view you're getting is almost identical, but in respect of sharpness, colour rendition, bokeh - everything really - you're viewing the image through two different lenses, so although the field of view might be the same you're not actually comparing apples to apples. My guess is that for a more scientific approach you'd need to repeat the exercise using the same lens, and then crop off the extra area the M9 gives you as a result of the larger sensor. This way, you're viewing the same area of the same lens with the two different cameras. Having said that, it's an interesting 'real world' comparison of what might happen if you choose an M9 over an M8 on the same shot after you've selected the right lens for the camera to get that shot. So I'm really glad you posted it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_hutton Posted September 14, 2009 Share #9 Posted September 14, 2009 Yes but you have introduced quite a variable in terms of resolution by using 2 lenses which, I agree, invalidates this 'research'. Best Graeme Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geaibleu Posted September 14, 2009 Share #10 Posted September 14, 2009 What you are comparing are two different lenses, not two different cameras. A 35 does not "see" as a 28 does, as exemplified in your first pictures which clearly show a significant difference of size for the blackish tower. What you are clearly demonstrating is the myth according to which 1,33 times 28 equals 1 times 35. It just is not so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted September 14, 2009 Thanks for your comments ....so i will go back at my Leica dealer to make another tests as you say it . According to me (and my Leica dealer agreed) , i think that both are Summicron and that there is no (or not enough) difference on the other hand I wanted to take the same picture without changing optics every time Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 14, 2009 Share #12 Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) Actually, the Doc's technique is perfectly valid - for a given EFFECTIVE focal length and field of view. Using the same lens on both cameras and then "cropping" the M9 image is a Procrustean* approach designed to cripple the M9's distinguishing feature - the fullframe sensor. Pixel for pixel, the M9 is probably not significantly different from the M8 - it's the 8.4 million extra pixels, and the 1.33x wider view, that need to be given their due in a comparison. I'm just about to load my M8 pix taken alongside the M9 in Salt Lake - a 15mm c/v on the M8, and a 21 pre-ASPH on the M9 - because those are the two lenses needed to get a 92-degree (diagonal) view of the world from the respective bodies. It's true that there is no exact equivalent to a "35mm" for the M8 - the 28 cropped has a slightly narrower view (but also benefits the M8 in rendering details a bit larger in the frame) the 24 has a bit wider view (but correspondingly smaller individual details, benefiting the M9). So one must pick one or the other. *Procrustes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes Edited September 14, 2009 by adan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 14, 2009 Share #13 Posted September 14, 2009 Are these really 100% crops? If you use a 28mm on the M8 and a 35mm on the M9 then the angle of view might be the same, but the M9 has more pixels, so a 100% crop from that camera should show a smaller section of the full frame image than that captured using the M8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted September 14, 2009 Share #14 Posted September 14, 2009 Thanks for posting. No significant difference as far as I can tell, except in the cropping, which is to be expected. And the color and contrast, which I understand is a mugs game over the Web and in the state the current M9 is (though I have to say I prefer the sky color and contrast overall of the M9 to the M8--which is interesting because the 28 'cron is usually considered less contrasty than the 35... ). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #15 Posted September 14, 2009 First impression: So that everybody agrees and I will confirm this impression next week : the colour of the stone reproduced by M8 resembles most the stone which is seen with my eyes , that is reality ! If Adan wants it i can go on , otherwise i stop there Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbelyaev Posted September 14, 2009 Share #16 Posted September 14, 2009 The crops of the images images look similar. M9 images are bigger. It is expected, for the sensors are essentially the same except for their size. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted September 14, 2009 Share #17 Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) Actually, the Doc's technique is perfectly valid - for a given EFFECTIVE focal length and field of view. Using the same lens on both cameras and then "cropping" the M9 image is a Procrustean* approach designed to cripple the M9's distinguishing feature - the fullframe sensor. Not really Andy. If you use the same lens on both cameras then crop the M9 shot to mimic the M8 shot yoyu have the same thing with the same lens. Then you crop out 100% of both of those shot. Doing a test of any type using different lenses is not a true test of the camera and sensor. It is more a test of the lenses. It is said that if you buy a M9 and do a crop of the image to the same sensor dimension of the M8 you end up with what the M8 would of captured. Not sure this is correct in the real world. And cropping out a M8 size image from the M9 is not crippling the FF sensor. In actuality you are getting the best part of the sensor, IE less offset microlenses and more then likely less offset then the edge pixels on the M8. Edited September 14, 2009 by Shootist Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus Posted September 14, 2009 Share #18 Posted September 14, 2009 Comparing the same effective FOV is useful imo, because the effective FOV is the main reason for choosing a lens on your camera. It would be sensible to compare the X1-lens (24mm) with a 35mm-lens on the M9 or a 28mm-lens on the M8 or a 18mm-lens on the GF1 furthermore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 14, 2009 Share #19 Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) Well, it depends on what one needs to know. My primary consideration in a picture is FoV (and the quote-perspective-unquote that goes with it). If an M8 requires a 15mm lens to shoot a specific building, and an M9 requires a 21 to shoot the same building from the same spot in the same way - then that is the comparison I need to make. "Per-pixel" performance is for measurbators. Same for 75mm on an M9 vs. a 50 on the M8 - I don't CARE how a 50 performs on the M9, because I find the 50mm FoV boring - but I do like the "70"- 75 range on either camera, so that is what I must compare. IQ is the result of a system, not just a camera and not just a lens. Seriously - if you wanted to compare a 120 film camera to a 35mm film camera, would you use a 50mm lens on both (a wide-angle on the 120, and a "normal" on the 35)? - Or would you use equivalent "normal" or "wide" or "tele" lenses within each system - i.e an 80-90 on the 120, and a 45-50 on the 35mm? If you did the first, and then cropped them the same, you'd find out that, say, Pan-F "pixels" or grain look the same on either camera - but what use is that? The M9 is "medium-format" compared to the M8 - that format change has to be taken into account by using equally wide or normal or long lenses, not equal focal lengths. ---------- Yes, the particular lens used also needs consideration, though. I'd want them to be pretty much the "best" available in either system. So I'd question putting a 1950 28 Summaron f/5.6 on an M8 up against an ASPH 35 on the M9, so long as there are 28s that would be a better match. Edited September 14, 2009 by adan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mn4367 Posted September 14, 2009 Share #20 Posted September 14, 2009 Are these really 100% crops? If you use a 28mm on the M8 and a 35mm on the M9 then the angle of view might be the same, but the M9 has more pixels, so a 100% crop from that camera should show a smaller section of the full frame image than that captured using the M8. Absolutely correct!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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