"Digi-M" lenses. Why not?

[davidmires]

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A digital lens need not be cropped. Only offered with the ir coating. I suggested this a couple of months ago, but was pretty much scoffed at...

I still think it would be a good idea to offer a lens with ir filtering capabilities.

It wouldn't affect film users negatively, and wouldn't require any lenses to be completely redesigned.

35mm summilux ir anyone?

I would be OK with a new 28mm 'lux ir...

[DennisAllshouse]

Just to clarify: Nikon's G designation has nothing to do with digital. It signifies that the lens has no aperture ring. Aperture is controlled from the body. The DX designation signifies digital.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Not sure there is a 1.4 APS lens on the market for a crop sensor, not sure it can be done either. Maybe i'm wrong but I don't think there is, mostly zooms in the DSLR market for this size

[rvaubel]

Not sure there is a 1.4 APS lens on the market for a crop sensor, not sure it can be done either. Maybe i'm wrong but I don't think there is, mostly zooms in the DSLR market for this size

 

Guy

 

Wrong. The Sigma 30mm F1.4 is an APS dedicated lens. It is very compact (for a autofocus DSLR lens) and represents what you can do when you optimize lens design around a smaller senspr

 

If Leica decides to stick with the 1.3 crop factor sensor (and I wish they do) the possibilities exist for 21, 24 and 28mm F1.4's, something that would be impossible in a full frame lens. Or how about a nice 18mm F2 that is not the size of a house?

 

Rex

 

Rex

[carstenw]

Leica has a 25mm f/1.4 in the works for the 4/3 system.

 

I think Leica won't do this, simply because they are aiming for FF sensors. At least, this is what they are aiming for with the R10, as seen in announcements, and given that there is a limit to how small pixels can get and still look good, to maximise image quality--the driving force of Leica design--you need a sensor as large as you can get. This is also where Leica really pulls away from other manufacturers. Their lenses are still great on FF sensors. As a competitive advantage, FF makes sense for Leica.

[rvaubel]

Leica has a 25mm f/1.4 in the works for the 4/3 system.

 

I think Leica won't do this, simply because they are aiming for FF sensors. At least, this is what they are aiming for with the R10, as seen in announcements, and given that there is a limit to how small pixels can get and still look good, to maximise image quality--the driving force of Leica design--you need a sensor as large as you can get. This is also where Leica really pulls away from other manufacturers. Their lenses are still great on FF sensors. As a competitive advantage, FF makes sense for Leica.

 

While I agree that a FF sensor is a worthy goal on the R10 DSLR, I think perhaps the rangefinder M8 should stick with the 1.33 format. After all, Leica is having enough trouble dealing with cyan vignetting issues due to the short back focus requirements of non-retrofocus wide angle lenses. If they went to a full frame the whole IR filter issue would become even more complex. These issues don't exist with a DSLR so why not strive for full frame. But on a rangefinder we may be better off staying with the 1.3 format in order to keep a more compact and inconspecious camera.

 

Rex

[carstenw]

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The cyan vignetting issue is due to the ineffective IR filter on the sensor. I assume that Leica won't move to a FF sensor for the M8 until research has delivered a better IR filter for the sensor. I think this is only a question of time.

[luigi bertolotti]

I think that , AT THE MOMENT, it would be foolish in industrial terms to engineer a set of lenses dedicated to M8: Nowaday, I evaluate that M8 customers are mainly Leica M film users (not at all, as we can see here, too, but I think 65-75%) : as many have pointed, they would not appreciate AT ALL Digi-Only lenses : they would not BUY numbers of them. For the Leica newcomers surely is different, but M8 is so a unique camera in the Digi world that the "dedicated lens issue" is not such for the newcomers: after all , Leica has a very good set of lenses in their product list: IF, hopingly for Leica Co., in 1,5-2 years M8 REALLY should acquire significant numbers of new Leica owners, maybe the "digi only lens" could be an interesting project...but.. micro technology advances... maybe in this timeframe of 1,5-2 years 24x36 CCD could be viable for an M body...who knows ?

And do not forget the 4/3 standard : if it really would catch on, Leica could have the chance to get a good share for high level lenses in this market: at the moment, I think they are investing on this... there are good names like Sigma and Olympus... fine-tuning their product range in the 4/3 sector could bring good results and visibility for Leica.

[sandymc]

Definitely it would make no sense to engineer lenses dedicated to the M8. Most of the M8's problems can be directly traced to Leica's decision to maintain compatibility with the current M lenses. In essence, because of the short distance from the back of the current M lenses to the sensor, Leica had to use a sensor with microlenses, but with minimal IR filtering and no AA filter, leading directly to the IR and moire/artifact issues that plague the camera. It would make far more sense to engineer new lenses with greater lens to sensor distance, and build a "M9" with a more conventional sensor. And not as an M8 replacement - the M8 is still what owners of current M lenses need, but to compliment the M8, in the same way that the M7 and MP compliment each other

 

Sandy

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy

 

Wrong. The Sigma 30mm F1.4 is an APS dedicated lens. It is very compact (for a autofocus DSLR lens) and represents what you can do when you optimize lens design around a smaller senspr

 

If Leica decides to stick with the 1.3 crop factor sensor (and I wish they do) the possibilities exist for 21, 24 and 28mm F1.4's, something that would be impossible in a full frame lens. Or how about a nice 18mm F2 that is not the size of a house?

 

Rex

 

Rex

 

 

Thanks Rex forgot about Sigma, supposed to be a decent lens too. Anyway i have to agree on the M8 will never get to FF and stay a crop factor camera. There is just no way with the IR issue and the lenses being that close to the sensor it can be done, a DSLR yes becuase it has the distance between lenses and sensor. Leica in my mind would have to build a whole new lens line for FF in the RF line, don't think Leica wants to take that on. The crop factor does not bother me one bit but they need 12mm , 15mm lenses to compliment it and not at 7k each, more like buying a 21mm elmarit as far as price. We also need a 24 F2 , 28 1.4 and maybe a 21mm f2

[Jamie Roberts]

{Snipped}There is just no way with the IR issue and the lenses being that close to the sensor it can be done, a DSLR yes becuase it has the distance between lenses and sensor. {snipped}

 

Though I don't normally disagree with you, Guy, I don't agree completely with this statement.

 

I think it's more accurate to say "There is just no way with the IR issue and the lenses being that close to the sensor it can be done, today"

 

Tomorrow is an entirely different story, and all it would take is a breakthrough in sensor coating, micro-lensing, or sw correction.

 

All of those are very probably already happening in the research labs, so I personally think we *will* see a full-frame, fully compatible M9 without vignette or IR issues by, oh, crystal ball says y/e 2009 You read it here! LOL!!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Your right Jamie i should have qualified that, Today is the issue but something completely different in technology would have to come along and of course that can be done in the future

[jaapv]

Actually they could do this if they introduced a series of lenses that were only suited for the 1.33 crop factor digital format. There would be other atvantages to introducing an M mount lens that was exclusively for crop factor digital cameras. However the film people would be extremely pissed off. I don't know that Leica needs to irritate anyone else right now.

 

Rex

 

 

I don't really think that would upset film people - if it is a parallel series of lenses with similar specifications as the "general" range, only smaller, IR proof and -hopefully- at a slightly lower pricepoint. Not only would give everybody equal choice, but it would also give the film-user a chance to condescend to the digital photographer :D:D.

 

Anyway, if there ever comes a 36x24 sensor Leica M9, and I'm sure there will at some point of time (my guess is 2011), it may well be additional to the M8(mkII?), just like the Canon 1D and 1Ds lines.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

You know coming from the Canon forums of days gone by for me the issue came up quite frequently with regards to Canons EPS lenses (name maybe off) for there APS camera's and the lenses for the FFcamera's.Many people were upset you can't use one on the other and vice versa. not sure how this would play out for Leica but on the Canon side folks are not happy with that setup they have overall. I mean the issue for many of us here is we are sitting on many M lenses and switching would be a nightmare if you wanted to go that route and possibly devalue the hell out of our existing glass. Hard to say if it woud work for most folks without some financial hardship either buying new glass or selling there old glass. Tough call

[lct]

...It would make far more sense to engineer new lenses with greater lens to sensor distance, and build a "M9" with a more conventional sensor...

Never change good things like Leica lenses.

Having to 'code' them is far too much already.

There is no need to change anything in the lenses, apart from launching a couple of wides that are necessary anyway.

Suffice it to do what Leica should have done from the very beginning: Choose an APS-C sensor like the D2x's. No problem at all. When i see what i can do with my mere 6mpix R-D1, i would dream of a body like that. No need to 'code' the lenses. No vignetting problems with good lenses. A good software like the R-D1's. No moiré at all. No mandatory filters. We could use any old and new Leica, Zeiss and whatever lens. No 'cyan drift' and other stupid things like that.

Finally a clever move IMHO.

[jaapv]

Never change good things like Leica lenses.

Having to 'code' them is far too much already.

The is no need to change anything in the lenses, apart from launching a couple of wides that are necessary anyway.

Suffice it to do what Leica should have done from the very beginning: Choose an APS-C sensor like the D2x's. No problem at all. When i see what i can do with my mere 6mpix R-D1, i would dream of a body like that. No need to 'code' the lenses. No vignetting problems with good lenses. A good software like the R-D1's. No moiré at all. No mandatory filters. We could use any old and new Leica, Zeiss and whatever lens. No 'cyan drift' and other stupid things like that.

Finally a clever move IMHO.

I'm not so sure, as they were virtually murdered by the full-frame crowd when the M8 came out. Just because the 1.3 crop gives just one focal length difference and half a stop DOF difference has the hullabuloo died down. I shudder to imagine what an APS-sensor would have done.

 

You know coming from the Canon forums of days gone by for me the issue came up quite frequently with regards to Canons EPS lenses (name maybe off) for there APS camera's and the lenses for the FFcamera's.Many people were upset you can't use one on the other and vice versa. not sure how this would play out for Leica but on the Canon side folks are not happy with that setup they have overall. I mean the issue for many of us here is we are sitting on many M lenses and switching would be a nightmare if you wanted to go that route and possibly devalue the hell out of our existing glass. Hard to say if it woud work for most folks without some financial hardship either buying new glass or selling there old glass. Tough call

 

Yes - I remember that well, Guy. A always thought it utter b*******t, as nobody was forcing these lenses down their throats. Most got them virtually free with their 300D bodies. And nobody was stopping them from buying L glass. Well- maybe their wives or bankmanagers.

[lct]

I'm not so sure...

Neither am i. We are never sure when we have to choose between a good or a bad decision. We take it and we wait for the results. Now we see the results of Leica's decision.

[ChrisC]

Leica, on the other hand, is clearly aiming for full-frame 24x36mm sensors in the long term.......

 

John - That is your assertion, I'd call it a poor guess.

 

Leica already has a full 'frame' sensor, the one they chose for the M8; but it is a smaller 'full frame' than 36x24. A larger sensor would no doubt have given greater vignetting, greater cyan drift, and [i suspect] disappointment of the outer edge performance of some M lenses. For current M lenses the M8 sensor size is fine, and can continue to be fine providing [especially] the wide end is properly catered for. But will Leica commit to the current sensor size and produce lenses specifically for it's image circle? They might if people didn't keep doing the Canon publicity department's job for them by repeating the 'full frame' mantra.

 

..................Chris

[NickR]

As I understand it, digital lenses exist because electronic sensors reflect more light than film does back onto the rear lens elements causing flare. To diminish unwanted reflections, typical digilenses have multiple coatings on back and internal elements. Typical film-camera lenses, on the other hand, are not so thoroughly coated due to cost and therefore don't work so well on digital cameras. Re the M8, as Mike Johnston puts it: Why Film Camera Lenses Aren't Great for DSLRs, "Film-era Leica lenses are already "coated for digital" just because they were well-coated, period."

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[Iron Flatline]

Funny, some people think that a extra IR filter would be to expensive, and other are willing to pay thousands of dollars for a new digital M lens.... thats not logical, isnt it ? And waht will you do with your Digital M Lens, when Leica introduce the M9 with al fullframe sensor ?

Ditto. I agree with Olof. The effort needs to go into the next generation M, not lenses for this one. The lenses should last forever, the bodies need to change over time.