Guest stevenrk Posted November 17, 2006 Share #21 Posted November 17, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Guys, cut Sean a little slack here. His reviews are not "the law" that you have to follow; they're simply his observations, and nowhere on Reid Reviews is there any claim to omniscience. Please review the rules about flaming and personal attacks before you post. Thanks. Allan Absolutely agree Allan. And as Sean will tell you, I have and continue to be a strong supporter of the quality of his reviews and the fact that they speak to the adult and the photographer in each of us. And in that vein often very thought provoking beyond the particular subject in the title. That is why I stood by that quality when he and his wife were set upon by big names in RG. But here, as a poster who has also tested the RD1 and the M8, I do question the validity of Sean trying to paint the issue as one that is just old hat and the only difference is that it's been noticed more because it has a Leica brand. It's been noticed more because it is an order of magnitude more problematic. And because the loss of the M8 (which cannot survive on a small fringe market not much larger than the RD1's) is more significant than seeing the RD1 drop away, for lots of reasons, none of which had to do with a real life IR issue -- as the photographs I posted above show. Steven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Hi Guest stevenrk, Take a look here Sean's Part 4 . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
TimF Posted November 17, 2006 Share #22 Posted November 17, 2006 My view is that annual dues of 1/4 of a 486 filter (and I need 13 of them) ...... Can I ask why? Do your lenses Mark, all have different filter thread sizes? Or are the IR cut filters irremovable once attached to a lens? This does seem like cutting off your nose to spite your face IMVHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 18, 2006 Share #23 Posted November 18, 2006 Sean, I have read the article. And as I say, describing that the RD1 has a "weaker" IR issue is a very careful choice of words. You do a diservice to yourself, if no one else, by suggesting that you spent years using and revewing the RD1 without catching the IR issue if it was anything close to what it is with the M8. It isn't a weaker issue, it is an entierly different one. One that kills shots -- which the RD1 does not. Steven Steven, I'm not sure why the discussion of this aspect troubles you so much. You've seen the files from the tests. There are thousands of us who have been using the R-D1 for a long time without understanding that we were often correcting for an IR sensitivity. It's very interesting that we never realized that. I'm not sure exactly why these comments bother you as much as they do but please feel free to e-mail me if you want to discuss this further. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevenrk Posted November 18, 2006 Share #24 Posted November 18, 2006 Steven, I'm not sure why the discussion of this aspect troubles you so much. You've seen the files from the tests. There are thousands of us who have been using the R-D1 for a long time without understanding that we were often correcting for an IR sensitivity. It's very interesting that we never realized that. I'm not sure exactly why these comments bother you as much as they do but please feel free to e-mail me if you want to discuss this further. Cheers, Sean Sean, that sounds like a good idea. I'll send an e-mail. Best, Steven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 18, 2006 Author Share #25 Posted November 18, 2006 Can I ask why? Do your lenses Mark, all have different filter thread sizes? Or are the IR cut filters irremovable once attached to a lens? This does seem like cutting off your nose to spite your face IMVHO. Tim, I know you think I'm a prat but to my mind, the filter and bayonet ring will go hand in hand as the upgrade to make the lens "digital ready". If I had just one 55mm filter, and I wanted to switch from 24mm to 28-35-50 T-E, it's hood off the 24, move the filter to the TE, hood on the T-E. Since the hoods have metal claws which wear the accessory mount, I prefer not to constantly take the hood on and off. End result, I'll buy a filter for each of my lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 18, 2006 Author Share #26 Posted November 18, 2006 One of the things that I found fascinating is that the R-D1 is quite sensitive to IR as well and yet that never created a scandal that I can recall. I am one of the thousands of owners who have been working with that R-D1 for two years now. I know you are also Mark. I'll be happy to answer questions in this thread if it can miraculously stay on track. Cheers, Sean Sean, I guess the R-D1 magenta does not leap out at you like it does on the M8, so I was interested to go back to some pictures on the R-D1 which had disappointed me this summer and, sure enough, dark magenta in artificial light shots, almost a sludgy brown colour. A certain amount of incompetence from the photographer didn't help either but I'll look forward to trying out a filter on the R-D1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 18, 2006 Author Share #27 Posted November 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Mark, I think not generic 21, etc. If they do this, I would expect them to design these manual settings for their own (albeit uncoded) lenses. You're the software guy but I think they would just be tapping the same data that would also be brought up automatically when the coding was on. Best, Sean Yes, I agree, if the algorithm for, say, the 21mm Elmarit ASPH works for other 21s, just give them access to that. However, if it is really lens specific, there might be a more general purpose algortihm which was suited to both older Leica lenses and lenses from other vendors. I don't think anyone's interests are served by having a very long list of lenses from which to choose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted November 18, 2006 Share #28 Posted November 18, 2006 Guys and Girls I must say that I am appalled at the attacks on Sean. He did not invent the camera, nor did he say that he has done thousands of scientific tests to determine the absolutes of performance. (We leave that to Erwin Puts who goes through this science with reams of data which at the end doesn't tell us squat about what to do next. No knock on Erwin, I think he has his head on straight but just is too far off in the ether to be really helpful). Sean on the other hand takes the M8,uses it as he would as a wedding photographer, and then reports on what went well and what didn't. He shows images to make his points and tries to explain, when things don't go well, what might have been the cause. He then contacts Leica to get his points across as well as representing others on the forum who have found similar or worse issues. What in Heavens name to you want him to do. If you have better suggestions about how to have Leica remedy what are clearly issues, then why don't you contact Leica yourself to get a better resolution. Sean.............I am unabashadly a fan. I think your reviews are amazingly helpful and what I love is when a new issue is brought to you you don't hide from it, you simply acknowledge it, try to explain it, go to Leica to question it and then publish the findings. Thank you for the hundreds of hours helping the rest of us get the best from this wonderful instrument. It is not lost at least on some of us. Respectfully Woody Spedden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 18, 2006 Share #29 Posted November 18, 2006 Sean, I guess the R-D1 magenta does not leap out at you like it does on the M8, so I was interested to go back to some pictures on the R-D1 which had disappointed me this summer and, sure enough, dark magenta in artificial light shots, almost a sludgy brown colour. A certain amount of incompetence from the photographer didn't help either but I'll look forward to trying out a filter on the R-D1. Yes, as I said, I think there are thousands of us who have never realized that this problem affects the R-D1. I'll be using 486 filters on it now for certain work. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 18, 2006 Share #30 Posted November 18, 2006 Guys and Girls I must say that I am appalled at the attacks on Sean. He did not invent the camera, nor did he say that he has done thousands of scientific tests to determine the absolutes of performance. (We leave that to Erwin Puts who goes through this science with reams of data which at the end doesn't tell us squat about what to do next. No knock on Erwin, I think he has his head on straight but just is too far off in the ether to be really helpful). Sean on the other hand takes the M8,uses it as he would as a wedding photographer, and then reports on what went well and what didn't. He shows images to make his points and tries to explain, when things don't go well, what might have been the cause. He then contacts Leica to get his points across as well as representing others on the forum who have found similar or worse issues. What in Heavens name to you want him to do. If you have better suggestions about how to have Leica remedy what are clearly issues, then why don't you contact Leica yourself to get a better resolution. Sean.............I am unabashadly a fan. I think your reviews are amazingly helpful and what I love is when a new issue is brought to you you don't hide from it, you simply acknowledge it, try to explain it, go to Leica to question it and then publish the findings. Thank you for the hundreds of hours helping the rest of us get the best from this wonderful instrument. It is not lost at least on some of us. Respectfully Woody Spedden Thank you Woody! Amidst all the bashings from people who have implied that I am incompetent, dishonest, unprofessional, a poor photographer, a shill for Leica, pandering, etc., etc. it is really great to read your comments. I would argue that my series of reviews on the M8 have, all told, discussed more of the camera's weaknesses than any other writing about the camera I have read. And when I encounter weaknesses I do bring them to Leica's attention and advocate for a response and a solution. I also came up with an alternate design for the ISO and EV controls that could be implemented in firmware. Frankly, the contrast between what I try to do in my reviews and the way some people now describe me is so stark that I can sometimes barely understand it. But I also continue to argue for the camera's excellences and potential. If I didn't believe in its abilities, I wouldn't be using it for important assignments. So thank you emphatically for presenting another point of view. And now back to the M8. Best, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 18, 2006 Share #31 Posted November 18, 2006 Yes, I agree, if the algorithm for, say, the 21mm Elmarit ASPH works for other 21s, just give them access to that. However, if it is really lens specific, there might be a more general purpose algortihm which was suited to both older Leica lenses and lenses from other vendors. I don't think anyone's interests are served by having a very long list of lenses from which to choose. Hi again Mark, I think that all we can expect from them is to make available manually the same in-camera corrections that the code triggers. So, for example, a coded 24/2.8 can automatically trigger those corrections or a photographer can manually trigger them for an uncoded version of the same lens. With luck, the same manual setting will also benefit a lens like the Zeiss 21 but "with luck" would be the operative phrase. Best, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted November 18, 2006 Share #32 Posted November 18, 2006 Guys and Girls I must say that I am appalled at the attacks on Sean. He did not invent the camera, nor did he say that he has done thousands of scientific tests to determine the absolutes of performance. (We leave that to Erwin Puts who goes through this science with reams of data which at the end doesn't tell us squat about what to do next. No knock on Erwin, I think he has his head on straight but just is too far off in the ether to be really helpful). Sean on the other hand takes the M8,uses it as he would as a wedding photographer, and then reports on what went well and what didn't. He shows images to make his points and tries to explain, when things don't go well, what might have been the cause. He then contacts Leica to get his points across as well as representing others on the forum who have found similar or worse issues. What in Heavens name to you want him to do. If you have better suggestions about how to have Leica remedy what are clearly issues, then why don't you contact Leica yourself to get a better resolution. Sean.............I am unabashadly a fan. I think your reviews are amazingly helpful and what I love is when a new issue is brought to you you don't hide from it, you simply acknowledge it, try to explain it, go to Leica to question it and then publish the findings. Thank you for the hundreds of hours helping the rest of us get the best from this wonderful instrument. It is not lost at least on some of us. Respectfully Woody Spedden Well said, Woody, I totally agee! Sean, I also find your reviews exceptionally helpful and I hope you don't become disheartened by the 'foral noise'! Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted November 18, 2006 Share #33 Posted November 18, 2006 Guys, cut Sean a little slack here. His reviews are not "the law" that you have to follow; they're simply his observations, and nowhere on Reid Reviews is there any claim to omniscience. Please review the rules about flaming and personal attacks before you post. Thanks. Allan I have nothing against Sean. I've never read his reviews and I never will. But your comment cought my attention, because it is very inaccurate. When you hold yourself out as an expert within a community, then certain voluntary assumed standards of care apply. This is not like you or me reviewing a camera. Sean over the years has aquired a reputation and an experise in the field. As a result, he's held to a higher standard of care. And the kicker is that it's his own, voluntary decision to hold himself out as an expert that incorporates these higher standards. So if you want the acclamation of being an expert, then you open yourself up to the abuse if don't meet the higher standard. I'm not saying one way or the other, because I've never read his reviews. And I can't get past how Leica would try to push off this camera on their customers knowing of some of these problems. I assume they knew of at least some of them. But your statement is inaccurate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumshoecamus Posted November 18, 2006 Share #34 Posted November 18, 2006 clearly (and unfortunately) it is easier to be unpleasant by posting a forum message than face to face. even accepting that, I do not understand why everyone gets so pissy about sean. he visits this site and posts piles of messages containing useful advice and information. (he even bothers to reply to cheap insults.) a reasonable adult of course is able to evaluate sean's contributions and decide whether to heed them or not. I don't think I have ever read sean declaring himself an 'expert' or even implying it -- if you infer that he is an 'expert', well that is up to you. furthermore, if you spend your time on here exchanging digs and devising waspish remarks, I suspect you need to get out more. dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 18, 2006 Share #35 Posted November 18, 2006 I have not had a chance to read the latest Part 4 review yet but let me touch on something here also . I talk or we communicate almost daily lately on the issues, fixes plus the findings that we come up with between Sean and myself. He really is a great guy with great knowledge of RF the leica M8 and the world of photgraphy. Picking him apart and giving him the riot act is not only rude but also wrong and he certainly does not deserve the bad treatment. I personnally take what he says and writes about plus the works of other reviewers and what we talk and discuss about as a piece of a puzzle. You take elements from each person and start building a image of what the M8 is about. Blaming a reviewer or anyone about information they bring to the table is wrong, it should be viewed as another piece that you need to figure out what works and is best for you. I know I give many opinions here myself from my long experience in the field but I certainly am not perfect and would expect anyone that reads what I say as something to process in the brain and use as another piece of the puzzle. This is a forum of immense diversity and we will all not agree on the same thing otherwise we are just robots. Take the diversity and knowledge that we share and use it as a benefit and not a arguing platform. This is a great forum that leica sponsors and i really like being here but chasing someones tail day in and day will also make them leave and let's be careful about that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
osera Posted November 18, 2006 Share #36 Posted November 18, 2006 I think that the large majority of the people who post here and I'd guess an even larger majority of the people who read here understand the benefits of the reviewers and experienced people here. And the same large majority understand what you're saying Guy about each thing being part of the puzzle. Seems like there will always be a few who will take some non-constructive shots for whatever reason, and the successful forum and thread will not let that detract too much or chase away valuable contributors. Of course, it's valuable to have people expressing different viewpoints and disagreeing with each other, but that's not what I'm referring to here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted November 18, 2006 Share #37 Posted November 18, 2006 Tim, I know you think I'm a prat.... Mark, I certainly wouldn't have used such a crude term. Your reasoning obviously is what you feel is best. That it wouldn't be my choice is irrelevant to you (but then, I don't always use a hood either! ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted November 18, 2006 Share #38 Posted November 18, 2006 Sean and other RD1 owners who never noticed the purple pants As Sean knows, I did a rather comprehensive color profiling of the RD1 in ACR. At the time I did not know I was dealing with the "purple haze" problem, mainly because I didn't know their was a "purple haze" problem. In looking back, it worked. But the funny thing is, at some point, I lost the profile but never noticed it! Of course, the IR problem is not as strong as with the M8 but it is definitely there. My only explanation for not noticing it is I must of just tweaked individual frames when required without having it register in a conscience way. I can easily imagine that Sean did the same thing. Anyway, Sean and Guy and Jamie and scores of others are finding solutions to glitches in an otherwise outstanding camera. I am still awaiting my M8 so I can do some ACR color profiling of my own. I already have a beautiful 77mm Heliopan IR/UV cut filter from my very IR sensitive 20Da days. Guy, that luggage/closet/Gretag DNG file you sent me wasn't as useful as I had hoped. Does anyone have a DNG file that has a Gretag card in it along with a sample of other test objects. I would love to have a couple of examples so I can play around with profiling, filters, etc before I get my camera. Rex rvaubel@yahoo.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevenrk Posted November 20, 2006 Share #39 Posted November 20, 2006 Sean, that sounds like a good idea. I'll send an e-mail. Best, Steven Sean, much appreciate our discussion. As with your articles, illuminating, thought provoking and a pleasure. On comparing the RD1 and the M8, I agree that it is a useful comparison. I think you also understand that my concern was that it was important to highlight, for those who haven't seen your comparison shots, that the M8 shows a much broader effect from IR than the RD1 -- with or without the use of the 486 filter. It wasn't that I didn't welcome the comparison, just that it seemed to me to speak to a worse problem with the M8, not somehow that the M8 was just following in a line of other cameras. With the RD1, with or without a 486, your test shots show the reds, flesh tones, greens, etc are not affected and are as true as the image captured by the 5d (your reference image), which is what I have found as well. It's just the blacks, and those are brought back to 5D quality -- in terms of color, detail and luminance -- with the use of the 486. This is different from what your tests show the M8 does at the moment. The M8 has a much broader and greater sensitivity to IR, and as your test shots show, gets many colors wrong including reds and flesh tones. And when you put the IR filter on, these colors are still significantly off, and the blacks, although black, are quite different in terms of the level of detail and luminance. What you explained is that this is correctable once C1 and other color experts like J Holmes are brought in to create new profiles working from a 486 filtered and stable base. (And as we agreed we see with all of Jamie's hard work, not an easy thing to get right, and he’s to be thanked for leading the way through this.) That was very reassuring, although I'll be a full believer when I read your updated part 4 with your confirmation of the fact that the new profiles bring the M8 up to the level of the 5d (in terms of reference point – not making any comparisons of the two cameras). I mentioned that I would encourage you to put up your test shots on the site, so people can see what we are talking about. I hope you'll choose to do that -- followed by the confirmation shot when the good profiles start rolling in. You were also kind enough to give me a sense that the 486 filter is not going to be as much of a red beacon as I had feared from some of the images and discussion of it on the site. In fact, as you have a Heliopan Digital (which only covers a portion of the IR spectrum so cannot be used to correct the M8), you were going to give us an eyeball comparison of how the two reflect back out to the world -- I own the Heliopan as well, and have no problems with its reflective qualities, which just give a hint of a magenta at certain angles and none if you use a hood. One last note unrelated to what we discussed, as many of us who have read the articles have said here and on other forums, your articles are truly thoughtful, thought provoking and illuminating reading. They are much more than just reviews about a particular piece of equipment. They explore what it means to use that equipment as a photographer. That is a much more difficult article to write and to write well. And your articles consistently do it very well. They speak to us as adults. They question the issues of import to photographers. They provide real food for thought and self reflection. I would encourage you to take one or more of your M8 reviews and link it for anyone to read. I think a lot of people would get the quality of your current writings and why a subscription to your site is a hell of a good deal -- your links to your older reviews on LL do this, but not quite in the same way. All this is not to say I won't find myself in disagreement with you on occasion. But that kind of is the point as well. Your articles pay respect to the adult and photographer, and the right to question and disagree is at the heart of that -- and in fact you encourage us to use your views and observations as a base from which to ask our own questions. Look forward to part 5, and again appreciate your taking the time to walk through all of this with me. Best, Steven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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